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Shiz
12th December 2006, 05:24 PM
1) Who are the Sunnis and the Shiites?

They are the two main sects of Islam. And generally speaking, they?re not crazy about each other.

2) What are the differences between them?

Historically, they suffered their fissure 13 centuries ago when they differed over who the rightful heir to Muhammad was. Beyond that little nugget, the typical congressman shouldn?t have to worry his pretty little blow-dried head about the origins of the two sects.

The Sunnis historically were much more political than the Shiites. Devout and fundamentalist Sunnis felt (and feel) that there can be no law above the Koran. That means they feel that government by necessity must be a theocracy. Also, fundamentalist Sunnis consider Shiites to be apostates. An apostate is an even worse thing to be than an infidel.

Shiites traditionally were relatively non-political. You?ve seen this kind of Shiite philosophy in action in Iraq where Ayatollah Sistani supported the formation of a secular government and declined to claim the reins of leadership himself.

3) So who?s Sunnis and who?s Shiite?

The Shiite majority countries are Iran and Iraq . The Sunni majority countries are everyone else.

4) But wait. I thought you said Shiites were more open to secular governments than Sunnis. Then how do you explain Iran? Is Iran not a theocracy?

The ascension of the Khomenist Shiites in the late 1970?s marked a sea-change for the Shiite world. The Khomenists brought theocratic dictates to the Shiite realm. Before that and even after that, Shiites would have secular leaders like Yasser Arafat who in spite of his many flaws was at least not a religious nut. But with the Khomenists? star continuing to rise, the Shiites are becoming every bit as radicalized as the most radical Sunnis.

5) Can Sunnis and Shiites get along?

While of course tolerant people of any faith can get along, rigid fundamentalist Sunnis and Shiites don?t get along. Like I said, the radical Sunnis like the Wahabists and those in Al Qaeda consider the Shiites to be apostates. The Khomenists think much the same about their Sunni brethren.

6) Why?s that?

Because they practice slightly different faiths. The Shiites like Ahmadenijad wait for the 12th Imam. The Sunnis like bin Laden consider this apostasy. And vice versa.

7) But wait. You said Syria is a Sunni country. And yet they seem pretty snug with Iran. What gives?

The controlling Baath party in Syria is part of the Shiite Alawi sect. Even though the Alawis make up only 10% or so of the population, they are in firm control. So Assad cooperating with Iran is a Shiite/Shiite partnership.

8) How come the Sunni majority tolerates Assad?s leadership?

It?s a dictatorship, dummy. Dictatorships get ?tolerated? until they?re not anymore. But since Hafez Assad seized power in 1970, he and his chinless ophthalmologist son have had a solid grip on things. When the so-called war on terror started, Syria was considered a low-hanging fruit because of the country?s massive Sunni majority and Bashir Assad?s weak nature. But the fruit has gotten a lot higher over the past several months with Israel?s failed war against Hezbollah and Iran?s increasing brazenness in supporting its Syrian puppets.

9) What really worries me is that Iran will get a nuclear bomb and then give it to Al Qaeda. Am I wrong to have such a concern?

Right church, wrong pew. So to speak. Iran and Al Qaeda will never work together. Ever. Iran is run by fundamentalist Shiites. Al Qaeda is composed of the world?s most radical Sunnis. They hate each other even more than they hate us. Iran would never give Al Qaeda a weapon of mass destruction because if they did, it would be every bit as likely to detonate in Tehran as in Manhattan.

But Iran has its own terror group that is more lethal, better funded and better organized than Al Qaeda. Iran runs Hezbollah. If Iran wanted to give a weapon of mass destruction to a terrorist group, it wouldn?t need to outsource the project. Its own in-house terrorist brand is a lot more efficient at what it does than the cave-dwelling losers who comprise Al Qaeda.

10) That?s sobering. I guess we should be fighting Iran and Hezbollah. After all, we did declare a global war on terrorism and together they represent the globe?s most dangerous terrorist threat.

Yes, we should. And the fact that we aren?t tells you all you need to know about the Global War on Terror. At this point, it?s a pile of hooey. After we got to Al Qaeda and made them pay for 9/11, our country lost interest.

11) So, the big question: Can the Iraqi Shiites and Sunnis live peacefully alongside each other?

It depends on how fundamentalist and radicalized each sect in Iraq is. We know each sect has its elements that are bent on violence. The question is whether these elements are fringe groups or the mainstream. If they?re fringe groups, they can be destroyed and peace could break out. If they?re the mainstream, there?s no hope.

12) So what if they?re the mainstream? Then what?

Then the country has to be broken up, with the Sunnis getting a piece and the Shiites getting a piece and the Kurds holding onto their piece.

13) That?s disappointing. It doesn?t quite match the original vision of an Islamic Jeffersonian democracy that swirled about our heads three years ago, does it?

Radical Shiites and radical Sunnis have as much interest in living in a Jeffersonian Democracy as the typical American has living under Sharia. The quicker we come to peace with that fact, the better.

14) Now that I know all this stuff about Shiites and Sunnis, I?m not sure it was such a good idea to invade Iraq. Gosh, I probably should have read some books between 2001 and 2003. Anyway, are we better off having invaded Iraq? Did I do the right thing supporting the war?

Relax. You did the right thing in supporting the war. We cannot afford the existence of states that will support and sponsor terrorism, especially terrorism aimed at us. That?s why Saddam had to go. And that?s why the lunatics in Tehran have to go. And it?s why Assad has to go as well.

Draknor
12th December 2006, 06:10 PM
So, in other words, they've been throwing rocks at each other for centuries, and this is going to go on until they're all dead.

shadowgate
12th December 2006, 06:58 PM
So, in other words, they've been throwing rocks at each other for centuries, and this is going to go on until they're all dead.

Unless one of two things happen:

a.) They nearly destroy each other completely and finally the none radical parts of them join forces to take out the remaining radical factions.

b.) The internet subverts the youth...

leng
12th December 2006, 07:26 PM
Not a bad summary up to point14.

Unfortunately, although Saddam was a nasty and vicious lunatic, he was pretty well cowed prior to the invasion. A Shiite Iraq, or even a Shiite partition of Iraq, working with Iran in a Shiite axis is likely to far more dangerous than Saddam was. Add to that the fact that, because of the invasion of Iraq the US took its eye off the ball in Afganistan. Now the Taliban (major sponsors of Al Qaeda) are in resurgence and the rump Nato forces there are having a hard time, partly because the only major force willing to actually go where the fighting is are the British and we can't afford the troops necessary to do the job properly because we are bogged down in southern Iraq.

Yuglooc
12th December 2006, 08:44 PM
A few comments:

1. I fully agree with point 13. That is indeed true in many societies - not just radical Islamists. I can give at least a dozen examples of this in recent (post-1900) history. There are a significant nuumber of people who dream of an Orwellian society in which everyone has the same beliefs and opinions on every subject - and that anyone who doesn't is the equivalent of an apostate.

2. I was against us going into Iraq, as I did not believe that Saddam Hussein had anything to do with the events of 11 September 2001. Yes, he was a brutal dictator - how many of those do we have now though? Now that the USA has committed themselves however, we do have to get the job done.

3. I pray that this does not result in a breakup of Iraq, as suggested by point 12. Iran would be the big winner if this happens, as the Shiite portion would likely be de facto absorbed into Iran. Turkey could fall into chaos as the significant Kurdish population in its eastern provinces attempts to breakaway into a new Kurdistan.

4. Who is/was the 11th Imam?

5. With regard to point 11: Even now (42 years after the Civil Rights Act outlawed all forms of racial discrimination in the USA), there is still significant distrust between the races. Almost every day, there's a report that African-Americans were pulled over simply because it looked like they didn't belong in that part of town. Many cities have large ghettoes that are overwhelmingly African-American (Los Angeles being one of the few exceptions - here, Latinos displaced African-Americans starting in the 1980s). It is a fact that people with names that don't sound Anglo have a tougher time finding jobs.

6. With regard to point 9: If (God forbid) Iran does get a nuclear bomb, where would thet use it? Yeah, Ahmadinejad has stated that he wants to wipe out Israel. Doing so with nukes would make Tel Aviv (a far more likely target than Jerusalem) uninhabitable for the Palestinians he wants to help though.

7. Again regarding point 9: I believe that al-Qaeda's primary target is not Manhattan. Washington DC, maybe. Los Angeles and Las Vegas are certainly high on the list, as they consider our entertainment to be corrupting.

Thanks for the history lesson on how the Shiite/Sunni feud got started.

noptov52
13th December 2006, 01:24 AM
6. With regard to point 9: If (God forbid) Iran does get a nuclear bomb, where would thet use it? Yeah, Ahmadinejad has stated that he wants to wipe out Israel. Doing so with nukes would make Tel Aviv (a far more likely target than Jerusalem) uninhabitable for the Palestinians he wants to help though.

If the Iranians want to nuke Israel, they won't give the Palestinians a second thought. The Palestinians are considered the poor, annoying cousins of the Arab world and most middle eastern nations would be happy to see them go right along with Israel. Palestinians get a lot of support only because they are seen as a useful way to fight the West (the US isn't the only one who knows how to fight proxy wars). There's a lot of noise about all the things that Israel has done to them, but that is more political gamesmenship then fact. The truth is Israel is no neophyte, but countries like Jordan have outright killed more Palestinians than they've ever accused Israel of doing.

Also, don't buy into that "hooey" that the muslim sects hate each other more than they hate the West. The radical factions might hate each other more, but the average person on the street hates the US more. Part of that is because it is easier to hate someone/something that is so different.

leng
13th December 2006, 05:59 AM
Also, don't buy into that "hooey" that the muslim sects hate each other more than they hate the West. The radical factions might hate each other more, but the average person on the street hates the US more. Part of that is because it is easier to hate someone/something that is so different.
Yup. Domestic disputes are like that. Ask any cop - husband and wife are laying into one another with a vengeance until the police arrive then they gang up on the poor sod who got between them.

deepfred
13th December 2006, 04:08 PM
what is the source of the original post shiz? sniffs of varying agendas.

there is a lot of rumbling going on about "dealing" with iran these days. i heard a quote the other day from some FOX personality suggesting that bush should nuke iran the day before he leaves office.

while i agree that iran was always a much bigger problem than iraq, or indeed afghanistan, and i think the invasion of iraq was a truly stupid thing to do (for the very result we're facing today), i do hope that everyone so quick to be thinking that we need to be considering some kind of "action" in and around iran understands that one of the biggest problems with iraq is that we have utterly destroyed our own capability of doing anything of the sort.

as my dad keeps saying, "you know, if we insist on keeping iraq as a single country, what we really need in iraq is some kind of strong-man to keep those folks in line... "

leng
13th December 2006, 04:16 PM
There is a reference I wish I could track down. After Desert Storm (1) an interviewer asked a (pentagon?) spokesman why the alliance forces didn't carry on to Baghdad and finish the job. His reply was that, apart from the fact that a lot of the coalition partners would not have agreed to it, the results would be ...
The ... was a pretty good description of the mess Iraq is in now. The general tenor was better the castrated devil you know

deepfred
13th December 2006, 04:22 PM
that's always been bush snr's response to not going into iraq, it's always been the logic among defense leaders for decades.

it only changed when the halliburton squad got into office and leaned heavily on everyone to convince us that a) hussein somehow had a hand in al queda terrorism and b) the iraqis would welcome us as liberators.

EricStratton
13th December 2006, 04:34 PM
Ah, the Iraq war. Is it that time of the month again? Can't we just link to the last thread we had on this and be done w/ it?

Not that I don't like reading the same stuff over and over again, it's just that, you know, it's Christmas!

Shiz
13th December 2006, 04:52 PM
This was a post on Hugh Hewitt's blog by Dean Barnett, so yes, there is a idealogical whiff to it.

jefspendar
13th December 2006, 11:54 PM
well, regarding the use of nukes, one of the really sobering character traits of religious fanatics is they're obvious disregard for THEIR OWN lives vis a vis martyrdom as a path to heaven. still believe that if they're all so damned concerned about a war in the hereafter we ought to send them there to fight it.

during the cold war, at least we could be pretty certain that our adversaries wanted to survive and would not do something tantamount to suicide. we're facing a situation here where the protagonists, if they came into possession of the bomb, would consider its use ( particularly against Israel ) as an act of glory and if they happened to die in the conflagration so much the better.


jef

attriel
14th December 2006, 11:26 AM
still believe that if they're all so damned concerned about a war in the hereafter we ought to send them there to fight it.


i agree! ****ing norsemen!