New Car Thoughts

[EricStratton]

I might have failed to mention it in yesterday's daily thread but I dropped my car off at the Dodge dealership on Tuesday to get them to fix the fuel pump which is what Goodyear says is wrong w/ my car.

After lunch yesterday Dodge calls me to let me know that it's not the fuel pump that's bad, it's the intake manifold. It's got a leak and oil is filling up inside it (or something, I'm not really car-literate). Which would've been a good thing b/c it's $300 less to fix than the fuel pump. But he said that's the lesat of my problems. He said I've got ~$2200 worth of safety issues to fix just to get them to feel comfy having me on the road (something about loose ball joints). *Then* it'd be another $550 to fix the intake manifold.

So I talked it over w/ Joy and we decided that it's probably time for a new car. The Durango (god bless him) is 7 years old now and just the other day hit 100K miles. So we think it's time. We can put the $2500 we were going to spend to fix the Durango as a down payment. We're not sure what car to get tho. We'd love another SUV but figure if we wait until Joy needs a new car to get an SUV they might have gotten more fuel efficient. So we decided that I'll just get a saden even tho it really isn't like me. Only cars I've had were a truck and the Durango. I think the hard part will be finding one I can fit in confortably. Anyone have any suggestions?

I don't particularly care what type of car I drive. I'm not one of those Northern Virginian-ites that feels he must prove he's something to everyone else by driving a $100K car. But god help me it's gotta be big enough to fit me. Looking at Edmunds.com I made a list of inexpensive mid-sized sedans that got good Edmunds and user ratings. We're going to go test drive them to see if I fit in them some time in the next couple of weeks. I'd love to hear some thoughts on the below or any additions.


- 07 Toyota Avalon Touring 4dr Sedan (3.5L 6cyl 5A)

Price on Edmunds.com - Invoice = $27.4K, MSRP = $30.7K

- 07 Mitsubishi Galant Ralliart V6 4dr Sedan (3.8L 6cyl 5A)

Price on Edmunds.com - Invoice = $27.9K, MSRP = $29.7K

$1500 Manufacturer's rebate (makes MSRP = $28.2K)

- 07 Nissan Altima 3.5 SL 4dr Sedan (3.5L 6cyl CVT)

Price on Edmunds.com (w/ tech package, Dynamic control and full size spare, floor mats) - Invoice = $29.5K, MSRP = $32K

- 07 Hyundia Azera Limited 4dr Sedan (3.8L 6cyl 5A)

Price on Edmunds.com (w/ Ultimate package) - Invoice = $27.6, MSRP = $30.3

- 07 Toyota Camry Hybrid 4dr Sedan (2.4L 4cyl gas/electric CVT)

Price on Edmunds.com (w/ Navigation and sunroof) - Invoice = $26K, MSRP = $29K, TMV = $30.5K.

[Greebo]

I don't have any experience with the Camry Hybrid, but my experience with Toyota's in general has alwasy been excellent, and the Highlander Hybrid has been a real pleasure.

Hybrids, however, will cost you MSRP at minimum - they're hard to get and in high demand. The fuel savings, however, is not insubstantial, but only makes up for the higher price IF you keep the car a long time.

That said, a 7 year old car needing $2500 worth of work might be worth it, IF the car hasn't been regularly maintained. 100k and 7 years - for $2500 you can probably get at least 3-5 more years and another 50k miles out of it. 10 years needing $2500 and I'd say yeah, ditch it, but 7 years, I'd be on the fence.

[DirkDarkBlade]

I've loved my Nissan's. The Altima is a good line and the 07 model has been restyled.

If you want to try a less expensive car to save up for a bigger SUV later Nissan just introduced a new car in the $12,000 range. I haven't seen one in person yet, but it is supposed to have more room than other cars in its class. (leg room / head room). Being rather short myself leg room / head room hasn't been much of a concern for me.

Also, in the price range you're showing you could get a 350z (of course that is just a two seater, but I really like mine).

I liked my Saturn and they have a few new models out this year (a smaller SUV, a regular SUV and a sedan, oh and a convertible). My friend has a VUE SUV and really loves it. The only thing I have against Saturn is that they seem to go for 100K miles just fine...then die. GM is also offering 100k warrentee's as an enticement to buy GM vehicles too (which is a plus).

I have a couple of friends who have had Toyotas lately and really liked them (The highlander and Avalon I think). And I've a few friends who've driven Honda and really liked them. My boss is drving his Honda into the ground (Its 10+ years old I think).

I don't have any experience with the other car lines personally.

[Andrea]

I've loved my Nissan's. The Altima is a good line and the 07 model has been restyled.



I have to agree. I love my nissan. 07 Altimas are really nice.

[Shiz]

Funny thread. I have a big chunk of deferred pay coming due in April and am thinking about a new car. The new Acura RDX (small SUV) has my eye right now. My 2003 Alero is fine, but I want to treat myself to something more upscale.

[GravenStone]

I've been pondering getting an SUV as well. Moving to the boonies combined with seeing how ineffective the locals are at snow removal has me longing for AWD and a bit of clearance. Sort of meandering between the Mitsubishi Outlander (newly redesigned can equal newly introduced bugs) and the Acura RDX (turbo in an SUV? er, maybe...) but really need to get a couple bills paid down first before I jump.

If you like the Durango, Dodge currently has $7k in "dealer support" on the remaining '06 models. Might be worth looking into for you. I'm sort of interested, but 18 mpg mixed with 50 mile round trip commute does not sound like fun times.

[EricStratton]

I've been pondering getting an SUV as well. Moving to the boonies combined with seeing how ineffective the locals are at snow removal has me longing for AWD and a bit of clearance. Sort of meandering between the Mitsubishi Outlander (newly redesigned can equal newly introduced bugs) and the Acura RDX (turbo in an SUV? er, maybe...) but really need to get a couple bills paid down first before I jump.

If you like the Durango, Dodge currently has $7k in "dealer support" on the remaining '06 models. Might be worth looking into for you. I'm sort of interested, but 18 mpg mixed with 50 mile round trip commute does not sound like fun times.
I'm not a big fan of the new (I think 2000 or 2001 and up) Durango. But if it gets 18 mpg, you're lucky. On a good day (and I'm not kidding here) I get 13 mpg.

[GravenStone]

I'm not a big fan of the new (I think 2000 or 2001 and up) Durango. But if it gets 18 mpg, you're lucky. On a good day (and I'm not kidding here) I get 13 mpg.

heh, sounds like my old '77 Cougar XR7 - 15 mpg city, 15 mpg highway, 15 mpg with a tail wind, 15 mpg ... you get the idea. Loved that car, although when I was looking prior to finding it, I damn near picked up a '76 T-Bird with the 460 4-bbl and the 40 acre hoodline. Even as a young pup, I knew better than to tie myself down to an 8 mpg cruiser though.

[Shiz]

Realized mpg drops with a car's age, plus the newer SUV models are more fuel efficient in general.

[jefspendar]

well, for sheer build quality and durability you can't screw-up with the honda/toyota/nissan group. i also can recommend subaru-the japanese volvo. their wagon 4wd/awd is stout and a real value.

if you're looking full-size suv, drive a new tahoe. you simply won't believe it. have been in the chevy business for years and have never driven anything approaching the new tahoe ride quality/roominess/fuel economy in a full-size suv. buy it or not, you'll be impressed. for the first time since 1988, chevy has built something truly world class.

if you're looking at camry/accord/altima, drive a new impala esp with the big 6. comfortable, with more interior room than the imports, excellent handling, reasonable panache for the $ and 30mpg. again, buy it or not, believe you'll be impressed.


jef

[Greebo]

FYI for the Hybrid Highlander, while there is an AWD model, the rear wheels only have electric motor assist and I *think* only kick in if the front wheels slip. Around here, I couldn't find any AWD highlander hybrids when I was hunting.

[Hermie]

My parents have the Toyota Prius Hybrid and have been driving it for a couple of years now and have had no issues. They also have a Toyata Camry and just sold there late 80's Camry. Good cars.

I like Honda's and Toyota's we have two Toyotas (Sienna and a 1975 FJ40) and my 94 Honda Civic is up for sale.

Only experience with Nissan was back when they were Datsun but both the truck and car ran forever. Which was unfortunate since the car I could use in Highschool was my parents brown Datsun Hatchback - not much of a chick magnet car (although I've been told it probably wasn't the car).

I did look this year at the Toyata Camry Hybrid and liked it alot and may have been my next car except my brother inlaw was selling his car and gave me a good price.

[GravenStone]

well, for sheer build quality and durability you can't screw-up with the honda/toyota/nissan group. i also can recommend subaru-the japanese volvo. their wagon 4wd/awd is stout and a real value....

Before I bought my current ride (Acura RSX type S) I test drove a Subaru Impreza WRX STi. Wee bit snug in the midquarters that was - my damned shoulder literally rubbed against the B pillar. Loved everything else about it, but just too snug a fit.

[Sylvene]

An older couple I know bought the Hybrid Camry and are in total love with it.

[Lycos]

I might have failed to mention it in yesterday's daily thread but I dropped my car off at the Dodge dealership on Tuesday to get them to fix the fuel pump which is what Goodyear says is wrong w/ my car.

After lunch yesterday Dodge calls me to let me know that it's not the fuel pump that's bad, it's the intake manifold. It's got a leak and oil is filling up inside it (or something, I'm not really car-literate). Which would've been a good thing b/c it's $300 less to fix than the fuel pump. But he said that's the lesat of my problems. He said I've got ~$2200 worth of safety issues to fix just to get them to feel comfy having me on the road (something about loose ball joints). *Then* it'd be another $550 to fix the intake manifold.

Can I make a recommendation here?

This is to everyone! Never take your car for regular maintenance to a dealer. They don't get regular work, so they milk everything that comes through the door. Unless it's warranty or recall work, do not take it to a dealer. Here is what I would do. Talk to some friends who have a good mechanic/shop that they work with. Take it to that shop, and get a second opinion. It more than likely is not as bad as the dealer says.

But then again, if you're into putting out a ton of money before you're ready to do that, then go for it. Get a second opinion before spending all that cash! Please!

[Erudite]

I don't buy foreign cars. Bunch of pinko commies, the lot of ya! :lowrazz:

[Aananla]

I also wouldn't consider a "new" car unless I was considerably wealthy and could afford the depreciation hit right off the lot.

Personally, I'd take the Durango to a local trustworthy shop for a second opinion as Lycos recommended. Maybe, get it repaired depending on what the opinion was, and save up to pay cash for its replacement.

But, I've become a tightwad lately.

[EricStratton]

Can I make a recommendation here?
You're not even going to wait for us to say yes or no, are you? Sigh. :lowrazz:

This is to everyone! Never take your car for regular maintenance to a dealer. They don't get regular work, so they milk everything that comes through the door. Unless it's warranty or recall work, do not take it to a dealer. Here is what I would do. Talk to some friends who have a good mechanic/shop that they work with. Take it to that shop, and get a second opinion. It more than likely is not as bad as the dealer says.

But then again, if you're into putting out a ton of money before you're ready to do that, then go for it. Get a second opinion before spending all that cash! Please!
That's good advice. As a note, I originally took it to them b/c I knew exactly what I wanted done but had them check it first. All the "safety issues" they found were new to me.

But yeah, my plan is definitely to get another opinion on the safety issues just to see about how much longer I've got. I still I think I'm getting a new car tho.

[Kiir]

Honestly I love my Toyota, I am most likely getting another one when we upgrade it in a few years (5 or 6) and need something bigger. I have yet to have a problem with it. My neighbor has the Avalon and I really like the look of it, if we were buying a sedan next time it would be high on my list, and I know a couple of people with the Camry (not hybrid version though) who adore their's and have no problems with them (my grandmother's Camry is a 94ish and still runs perfectly).

My parents love Nissan's they both have one as does one of my sisters, they have had no problems with any of their Nissan's (other then car crashes which don't really count).

On the other hand I have been less then impressed with all the American made cars I've bought, and we are unlikely to buy American again. They don't hold up as well, and for the price foreign cars tend to be better.

[Erudite]

/em surreptitiously adds Kiir's entire family to the "Terrorist Sympathizer Watch List" as provided by the Patriot Act

/em whistles innocently

;)

[DirkDarkBlade]

Really the only American Car company I'd consider is Saturn. And they have a reputation for being great cars up to 100k miles then falling apart (almost to the inch). We've owned several American cars as a family and none of them really held up that well. Sorry Erudite.

I would consider and recommend the Saturn VUE.

These things can change over time so if the US automakers get their act together maybe this can change.

[Lycos]

I still I think I'm getting a new car tho.

I love my Hyundai ('03 Sonata) and Toyota ('05 Sienna). They are both great cars. Honda is good too. I just did not want to spend the extra money!

[Erudite]

We've owned several American cars as a family and none of them really held up that well. Sorry Erudite.

No worries. I'm (mostly) just playing around. I've lived in Michigan my entire life - you probably need to spend a fair amount of time here to understand how big of an impact the American auto industry has on the state's economy and, consequently, how pervasive it is in the culture.

We own a '92 Cavalier (140k and relegated to winter duty), a '97 Sebring (105k) and a '04 Grand Caravan (25k) and haven't had excessive problems with any of them. We traded in a '90 Cavalier for a '95 Saturn, which we traded in for a '98 Saturn, which we traded in for the van. No issues with any of those, either. Then again, I don't shirk on regular maintainence either. :D

[Shiz]

Really the only American Car company I'd consider is Saturn. And they have a reputation for being great cars up to 100k miles then falling apart (almost to the inch). We've owned several American cars as a family and none of them really held up that well. Sorry Erudite.

I would consider and recommend the Saturn VUE.

These things can change over time so if the US automakers get their act together maybe this can change.

The US/non-US argument is a non-argument. A lot of "US" cars are partially built/assembled in Mexico. A lot of "non-US" cares are 100% built/assembled here. BMW and Toyota each have several plants in the US. Encouraging GM to make a sub-standard product (by buying it) because it is a US brand doesn't help GM in the long run.

That said, I have had 3 GM cars and a Ford. Why? Incentives. My 2003 Alero had a $24,000 sticker and cost me $14,775. I had no intention of buying an Alero until I saw $10,000 in incentives staring at me from the newspaper.

[Erudite]

The US/non-US argument is a non-argument. A lot of "US" cars are partially built/assembled in Mexico. A lot of "non-US" cares are 100% built/assembled here. BMW and Toyota each have several plants in the US. Encouraging GM to make a sub-standard product (by buying it) because it is a US brand doesn't help GM in the long run.

Nah, it's still an argument. It's just not as simple as The Big Three vs. everybody else anymore.

[Raveneye]

I've never owned an import. My first car was a '78 Olds Cutlass handed down from my parents. My first self-purchased car was a '90 Dodge Shadow that got great gas milage and held up really well until I met my wife and she started systematically dismantling it. :smile: After that I bought a '95 Chevy Blazer brand new custom ordered, and LOVED it. While it had the EGR Valve issue that haunted that model, it was otherwise a fine automobile for 10+ years. We bought my wife a Ford Focus wagon in 2001, and it's been a great car for both milage and duribility, and right about a year ago we traded in the Blazer (135,000 hard earned miles through about 20 states) and got my wife a 2006 Chrysler Town and Country van that has been great so far.

Mostly I've bought American to save money and because the cars had more features that I liked. I also have a friend who owns a Goodyear, so it's helpful that I have a mechanic I trust. My dad has owned nothing but imports (Honda and Toyota) during the time I've been buying my own cars, and while he's had less problems overall with them, when something does go wrong it's usually far more costly to repair.

I'm not saying American cars or imports are the better buy, I'm just saying that the conventional wisdom that imports are somehow better built has been falling by the wayside in recent years. American companies seem to have gotten the message and are building better cars.

[Greebo]

I'm not saying American cars or imports are the better buy, I'm just saying that the conventional wisdom that imports are somehow better built has been falling by the wayside in recent years. American companies seem to have gotten the message and are building better cars.
Well when they catch up to the point where they're not just building better cars but they're building GOOD cars - and I mean as good as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc., let me know, ok? ;)

[Draknor]

I love my Mazda Tribute, but it's really nothing more than a tall midsized car with pseudo AWD (front wheel that sends power where it's needed) with 4WD on demand if I want it. The Ford flavor comes in a hybrid, and it's practically identical to the Mazda. The thing I really like about it is the handling - very nimble, and the V6 has plenty of power. It's not being offered for 2007 pending a re-design for 2008. And I imagine Mazda wants to push it's two new minivan/suv hybrid...things.

If I didn't live in Minnesota, I'd probably go back to a car next time around. As long as I stay here, I'll always buy something with AWD/4WD and some moderate ground clearance.

I've heard good things about the Acura/Honda/Toyota SUV's.

American cars are better now, but I still haven't seen that they're in the better/superior range yet. And I still bring mine to the dealer for maintenance. They've proved themselves to me as trustworthy and reliable. I'll pay a few extra bucks for that.

[noptov52]

My uncle in law really loves Mazdas and has progressively moved up their product chain when he's had the money to do so. He finally got a Miata this year and couldn't be happier. Of course the Miata is small and thus not suitable for bigger people for any extended length of time.

Since you live in the area ES, you know how crazy traffic can be and you ought to check out the safety ratings of the cars once you've narrowed your list down. My friend Kevin will curse the repair costs of his old Jetta all night long, but it was a damn fine car feature wise and he walked away from a 50 mph highway crash with nary a scratch on him.

[Erudite]

Well when they catch up to the point where they're not just building better cars but they're building GOOD cars - and I mean as good as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc., let me know, ok? ;)

Heh. You were okay until you said "Nissan". They're among the least reliable line of vehicles currently being produced.

I love my Mazda Tribute, but it's really nothing more than a tall midsized car with pseudo AWD (front wheel that sends power where it's needed) with 4WD on demand if I want it. The Ford flavor comes in a hybrid, and it's practically identical to the Mazda.

Ford owns about 1/3 of Mazda. Incidentally, two Ford models beat the Camry and Accord in terms of reliablity this past year - the Mercury Milan and the Ford Fusion. Just BARELY beating the Toyotas and Hondas probably isn't enough for Greebo, though. :lowrazz: (Yes, they're built in Mexico.)

[Greebo]

Ok, well, no personal experience with Nissan, so I can drop them from my list if you insist. ;)

[GravenStone]

I love my Mazda Tribute, but it's really nothing more than a tall midsized car with pseudo AWD (front wheel that sends power where it's needed) with 4WD on demand if I want it. The Ford flavor comes in a hybrid, and it's practically identical to the Mazda. The thing I really like about it is the handling - very nimble, and the V6 has plenty of power. It's not being offered for 2007 pending a re-design for 2008. And I imagine Mazda wants to push it's two new minivan/suv hybrid...things.

I've actually been curious about the hybrid as well, but am somewhat concerned about how well hybrids tolerate potentially extreme cold. I've had a handful of times over the years when my vehicles simply gave up the ghost in very low temps (to be fair, we don't hit -30 F all that frequently) and am leery of shifting to a vehicle whose entire purpose is wrapped up in a whole tray full of potentially "dead" batteries under such extremes. Guess I should see what "the Google" can tell me ...

[Greebo]

You know that's a good question, Graven. I've never had a problem starting my car, but Baltimore isn't known for its sub-zero temperatures either. I do know that the hybrid has two battery systems, one normal battery for the standard car electrics (minus the usual starter system) and one very different battery system for powering the electric motor. I'm not sure what kind of rechargable it is - nicad or something else - or how it handles extremes. I'll have to check the owners manual...

[Draknor]

Doing a quick search didn't show many complaints about it. I did find a comment that said it doesn't always do well if you leave it for a few days in cold weather, but the same could be said for any vehicle in such an environment. Apparently the battery is warrantied for 8 years, though.

The Hybrid is heavier by about 300 pounds, so there's a performance/handling hit, and the overall horsepower is less. But I'm guessing most people wouldn't notice the difference unless they previously owned the gas-only model. The A/C only runs when the gas engine is running, too, which struck me as a bit odd.

I'm going to consider one when I feel the need to buy again. If you research it more I'd be interested to hear what you find.

[Greebo]

The performance "hit" on the hybrid is compensated for nicely by the powered assist in acceleration, and the 300 pounds is on the bottom, which gives it increased stability (lower CG).

The Highlander (regular) actually has somewhat wimpy acceleration, but the hybrid picksup quite nicely for an SUV.

Oh and the AC requires the gasoline engine because the compression pump requries the kind of torque produced by the gas engine to drive it, so on warm days with the AC turned on, but parked, the hybrid will idle a while, then shut down, then idle again. The fan to circulate the air also draws juice which requires recharging by the gas engine.

[DirkDarkBlade]

I'm not sure where the "Nissan is among the least reliable cars on the market" came from. Consumer Reports likes most of the models (I don't think there is a car line that CR likes the whole line). We have several folks here that have owned multiple Nissans and are happy. And I've never seen a report that Nissans are unreliable. But we are all entitled to our oppinion.

And on the Foriegn cars built in the US. Nissan also has US factories building some of their models.

The one Saturn vehicle that was a lemon (according to the Saturn folks) was built in a GM plant and not the Saturn plant (my friend owned one of those). And one of the Saturn engines (I think it is in the VUE) is a Honda engine, the Saturn folks are up front and tell you this. Just an interesting idea.

[attriel]

I'm not sure where the "Nissan is among the least reliable cars on the market" came from.

And on the Foriegn cars built in the US. Nissan also has US factories building some of their models.


maybe the unreliable nissans are coming from the us plant? ;)

[DirkDarkBlade]

maybe the unreliable nissans are coming from the us plant? ;)
Could be. My car is one of the models they don't make in the US at all.

Thinking about it my car's power windows are acting up lately, and the power windows on my old 240sx also acted up. So maybe its the windows.

[EricStratton]

I always assumed it wasn't the workers themselves that caused cars to be crappy or not (like "actually made in the US" or "the factory's in Mexico") but the management and quality control behind the whole operation. So even if Toyotas are physically put together in the US or Mexico or whatever, I always assumed it was the processes behind all that (which is would be, in this case I would think, Japanese) which make the car a good one.

I guess the short question would be - what is it that makes (or used to make?) a Toyota/Honda reliable and, say, a Ford not?

[Aananla]

Could be. My car is one of the models they don't make in the US at all.

Thinking about it my car's power windows are acting up lately, and the power windows on my old 240sx also acted up. So maybe its the windows.
The windows on my maxima are acting up too.

[Serani]

So maybe its the windows.
Why the heck would you run your car on WINDOWS?!? I mean, geez! It's a wonder you're not having to stop and restart it every few miles.


Ahem.

*bows* Thank you. Thankyouverymuch.

[Greebo]

Why the heck would you run your car on WINDOWS?!? I mean, geez! It's a wonder you're not having to stop and restart it every few miles.


Ahem.

*bows* Thank you. Thankyouverymuch.
Old joke...

You need to get into chat more and get up to date. :)

[DirkDarkBlade]

Why the heck would you run your car on WINDOWS?!? I mean, geez! It's a wonder you're not having to stop and restart it every few miles.


Ahem.

*bows* Thank you. Thankyouverymuch.
Well I do have to pull over randomly, roll all the windows down and back up, to get the car to start back up for some reason, but it really isn't a big problem...

[Andrea]

*bows* Thank you. Thankyouverymuch.

BRAVO!! BRAVO!!! <claps profusely>

[Andrea]

I dont have a problem with my Xterra's windows. In fact, I have never had a problem with it at all. (except for the fact that it loves gas and always want more of it.)

[Lycos]

I dont have a problem with my Xterra's windows. In fact, I have never had a problem with it at all. (except for the fact that it loves gas and always want more of it.)

/rasies the blast shields

So, what are the GIRLS doing in a manly thread like this. Come on! I mean the best they can say about cars is "the watcha ma call it", and "the thingy". Go girls, leave the man stuff to the MEN!

/runs to the escape pods

/ejects the escape pod in time to prevent being destroyed by the retaliatory strike!

:rotflmao:

[Biaxin]

Hey,

I love it when girls talk about 'the thingy'...

[Erudite]

I'm not sure where the "Nissan is among the least reliable cars on the market" came from.

Consumer Reports, actually.

Consumer Reports likes most of the models (I don't think there is a car line that CR likes the whole line).

Heh.

[Sylvene]

So, what are the GIRLS doing in a manly thread like this.

Come on now... we love sitting on the hood and having our pictures taken. Especially in skimpy bikinis.

[Greebo]

Come on now... we love sitting on the hood and having our pictures taken. Especially in skimpy bikinis.
You said you'ld post yours!!!

[Lycos]

Come on now... we love sitting on the hood and having our pictures taken. Especially in skimpy bikinis.

Now that puts some new car thoughts into my head! :D

[Tulenyre]

Really the only American Car company I'd consider is Saturn. And they have a reputation for being great cars up to 100k miles then falling apart (almost to the inch). We've owned several American cars as a family and none of them really held up that well. Sorry Erudite.

I would consider and recommend the Saturn VUE.

These things can change over time so if the US automakers get their act together maybe this can change.

Hate to tell ya, They also crumple like a tin can hitting a brick wall at 100MPH. I will never buy a saturn, because their overall safety is trash these days (same for Pontiac).

[Tulenyre]

Advice from a recent Car buyer (and a swindler of that poor dealership).

1) safecar.gov .. learn it, live it, love it
2) edmunds.com/vehix.com do your research here including get the Dealer Invoice prices for the car and all it's options (each option has a dealer invoice price).

3) The Shipping Cost that they include is bull, it's nothing more then extra profit.. don't pay it
4) Any Admin costs are bull, it's nothing more then extra profit... again don't pay it.
5) Pay only 400-500$ above Invoice if you can help it.. any higher and your getting ripped off. Car dealers make 15% of the car price if they sell it at invoice.

6) Looking at a Hybrid, think Carmax.. they will give you the best deal in the area (always below MSRP).. Hybrids aren't selling like they used to so you can get below MSRP now. Also buy before December 31.. otherwise you get no tax benifit (tax incentives are dead next year and they cary by car exactly when and how they die).

7) Talk about your trade-in AFTER setting the car price, in fact don't even bother mentioning it untill after the price is set.
8) bluebook.com, learn it live it for your trade in value
9) Trade in, fix waht you need and nothing more.. they don't do comprehinsive checks so hide everything you can and clean the car.. stick em with a junker.
10) If you take the trade in to a dealership that sells that car and your buying a car from them you will get a better deal.
11) don't take no bull from their trade-in value.. they will always stick you with crap value.. know that bluebook value and cram it down their throats.

If they won't deal anymore say fine, we'll think about it and walk out.. there are alot of dealerships in this area and if they know if you walk out they will likely never see you again.

[Tulenyre]

Car Thoughts,

We tried every 4dr Sedan (literally).. the only one I liked because it had leg room for a 6 foot tall man was the Jetta/Passat by VW. I personally felt cramped in most other things... except the Chevy Malibu, my dad just got a 06 used one and it has nice leg room and good power.

The only disadvantage to Jetta... it's made in mexico. The Rabbit and Passat are not (at least If I remember the passat is made in germany).

[Sylvene]

Hate to tell ya, They also crumple like a tin can hitting a brick wall at 100MPH. I will never buy a saturn, because their overall safety is trash these days (same for Pontiac).

Fibreglass bodies. Made to shatter and dissipate force of impact - insert safety lingo & reasonings

*edit* Just checked my Ion because it's safety was a reason I bought it in 2003. 5 stars for Frontal, Driver & Passenger. Haha. No Data for Side collision - instrument malfunctioned. It hasn't got side bags but I knew that when I bought it.

[Sylvene]

Advice from a recent Car buyer (and a swindler of that poor dealership).

1) safecar.gov .. learn it, live it, love it
.

Found it... http://safercar.gov :P

[jefspendar]

) Pay only 400-500$ above Invoice if you can help it.. any higher and your getting ripped off. Car dealers make 15% of the car price if they sell it at invoice.


em/sighs

if only that were true. matter of fact, if any of it were true.


jef

[Asharad]

I don't know anything about cars. Nothing. I can pretend to check my oil but I don't really know what I'm looking at.

Funny car story (sorta funny).

My first car in high school was an older (even then) BMW. I really loved that car. At one point I got really vigourous with the washing and rubbed some of the paint off by the front driverside wheel well.

Anyway I sell it and flash forward 14 years or so. I walked out of my house the other day and damned if it wasn't sitting a few doors down from me. Same car, same paint rubbed off by the wheelwell. Apparently the family that lives down the street bought it for their kid.

[Lycos]

I don't know anything about cars. Nothing. I can pretend to check my oil but I don't really know what I'm looking at.


The next time you see Andrea ask her. I bet she can tell you! :D

[Tulenyre]

Fibreglass bodies. Made to shatter and dissipate force of impact - insert safety lingo & reasonings

*edit* Just checked my Ion because it's safety was a reason I bought it in 2003. 5 stars for Frontal, Driver & Passenger. Haha. No Data for Side collision - instrument malfunctioned. It hasn't got side bags but I knew that when I bought it.

It's the same body as the Pontiac Sunfire.. Front and Rear is generally fine.. it's the sides the crumble in and kill people (I've seen what happens personally to Saturns in side collisions, I was in the car with Nalfien when we hit one at 15mph).

Fiberglass = not good in collisions, the front and rear difference is because of the aluminum and steel box crumple zone frames.

[Tulenyre]

) Pay only 400-500$ above Invoice if you can help it.. any higher and your getting ripped off. Car dealers make 15% of the car price if they sell it at invoice.


em/sighs

if only that were true. matter of fact, if any of it were true.


jef

It is true, not only did I do it buying a car but friends of the family who own dealerships tell me all the same thing. The extra money on top is mostly the salesman commision. Some dealerships try to hide the truth from salesmen as well so they don't know how much commision they should get (they tend to try to up the actual invoice price and call it the "list" price).

The actual 15% profit changes a bit depending on the manfuacturer.

If you think about it, a car dealership wouldn't survive if it only sold cars on it's lot at the price you see.. it's not enough money to run a buisness of that size with those inventory costs.

[Erudite]

It is true, not only did I do it buying a car but friends of the family who own dealerships tell me all the same thing. The extra money on top is mostly the salesman commision. Some dealerships try to hide the truth from salesmen as well so they don't know how much commision they should get (they tend to try to up the actual invoice price and call it the "list" price).

The actual 15% profit changes a bit depending on the manfuacturer.

If you think about it, a car dealership wouldn't survive if it only sold cars on it's lot at the price you see.. it's not enough money to run a buisness of that size with those inventory costs.

You do know jef runs a dealership, right? ;)

[Shiz]

Here is what I know. Autonation is a public company that sells about 550,000 cars a year (3% of US market.) They sell new and used cars. Their gross margin is 6-7%. That's right. 6-7%. That includes inventory financing subsidies from the manufacturers and a mix of auto loans which carry a higher margin (9%). So if you really want to screw the dealer, pay cash.

The question for me when buying a car is how many weekends do I want to spend visiting dealers and haggling. That is unproductive time. If I can save 10-12 hours of headache by paying $500 more, I will. Weekends are precious.

edit: I was low at first blush on the margins.

[EricStratton]

The question for me when buying a car is how many weekends do I want to spend visiting dealers and haggling. That is unproductive time. If I can save 10-12 hours of headache by paying $500 more, I will. Weekends are precious.
This is why I'm going to try to do all the dealing online. I read somewhere (Edmunds, maybe?) that said it is understood that when you go into a dealership you start from MSRP (or so) and negotiate down. Where as if you get email/fax quotes you are dealing w/ different ppl and they will quote you their pretty much rock bottom price (I assume b/c they know they aren't the only joint you emailed/faxed). Once I do that I assume I can go in and sell them my car when I pick my new one up.

[Asharad]

I often think car dealers make the whole haggling process (and the car buying process in general) unpleseant just so you do just throw up your hands and say "Just gimme the car!"

I don't blame them, actually, cause it is a really tough business.

I'm like Shiz though, I'd rather walk in, test drive something, make an offer and go as opposed to playing a big cat and mouse game to save $500 spread out over 3 years, or whatever.

[Lycos]

I'm like Shiz though, I'd rather walk in, test drive something, make an offer and go as opposed to playing a big cat and mouse game to save $500 spread out over 3 years, or whatever.

We have a place like that up here for you, Carmax. I'm not sure where else they are. They do the no haggle pricing. And from what I hear their prices are fair.

[Asharad]

That's where I bought my Jeep, actually.

[Shiz]

We have a place like that up here for you, Carmax. I'm not sure where else they are. They do the no haggle pricing. And from what I hear their prices are fair.

No CarMax in the northeast. :lowsad:

[Greebo]

No CarMax in the northeast. :lowsad:
Got some in Baltimore. Come visit. :)

[GravenStone]

I often think car dealers make the whole haggling process (and the car buying process in general) unpleseant just so you do just throw up your hands and say "Just gimme the car!"...

Ran into one of those sods last time I was looking. Went into a dealership explicitly to test drive a couple models. Told the salesman up front I was not making a decision that day, was merely there to gather info and had other models I wanted to evaluate before I made any choices. Test drives go fine, sit down with dealer (who was a rather new hire ( I frankly knew more about the cars than he did) to chat about impressions, when one of the more "seasoned" salesmen comes by and starts into the "what's it going to take to get you to leave here today with this car?" spiel. I told the second guy I had zero intention of making such a decision that day, only to have him redouble his efforts. Turned to the newbie who first helped me and thanked him for his time and effort, then went off on the second clown - loudly informing him (and the whole showroom) that because he insisted on playing high pressure games in the face of my stated intentions, that he just guaranteeed there was no way in hell I was ever going to patronize that dealership once the time came to make my purchase - then walked out.

[Tulenyre]

The question for me when buying a car is how many weekends do I want to spend visiting dealers and haggling. That is unproductive time. If I can save 10-12 hours of headache by paying $500 more, I will. Weekends are precious.

Do Inventory Checking online, get the online price.. then go in with all the info haggle for 30 minutes and walk out with your car (you can get the car lower then even the internet price if you haggle). Saves the most time, imo. We are lucky here there is a competing dealership for every car only 5 miles from the last (I swear they are on every corner).

I'll haggle over 1$ if I can.. but I'm a cheap bastard. We only walked out of one place because they refused to deal and sent Rena away crying (Springfield VW Dealership in Virginia are AHoles).

[Asharad]

I hate hagging for anything.

Heck, I hate when you go to a resturaunt with friends and you try to figure out who owes what for the check- I usually jus end up paying. Yeah, I'm a mark.

[EricStratton]

I hate hagging for anything.
You hate what?

Anyway, I do too. I wish being part Lebonese would've given me darker skin or the ability to haggle but noooOOOooo. It just made me a walking carpet. :roll:

[Asharad]

You hate what?

Anyway, I do too. I wish being part Lebonese would've given me darker skin or the ability to haggle but noooOOOooo. It just made me a walking carpet. :roll:


I dislike it so much I can't even spell the word correctly.

[Caranthir]

I dislike it so much I can't even spell the word correctly.

Haggle?

[Asharad]

Haggle?


THAT'S THE ONE!

[DirkDarkBlade]

Haggle?
Wasn't he a character in the movie Labrynth?

[Caranthir]

Wasn't he a character in the movie Labrynth?

I thought it was the word for non-magical folk in the Harry Potter series?

[jefspendar]

saw several familiar comments here about purchasing a car. hear much the same thing every day. and you know what? you're right and i agree with you.

it is frustrating in the extreme to see what we spend on advertising in various media, in training, in inventory/building expense just to get customers to come into the store. and then we piss them off. it is a real challenge every day and one of the reasons this game is definitely not for everyone.

my father used to say(quite correctly) that there is only one perfect human system on earth and men will never experience it. every other one is flawed in some way.


jef

[Zyzzyx]

Hmm... new cars... I've been contemplating a 'new to me' car sometime in the near future. I've started looking for a '96-'99 BMW 318ti. Its the hatchback model of the 3 series. Hopefully find a really nice one for $5-7k, or a mediocre one for less. I remember when the cars came out new and thinking, "I should take a look at these in the future, as a used car." Well, the time has come. ;) Hopefully be able to do something on this front by summer.