Hit/Damage Clarification

[DinbinFanfoom]

OK this is a thread specifically to break out my confusion about Hit/Damage.

1) My fighter character has a longsword proficiency (example)
2) My fighter has spinning sweep encounter skill
3) My fighter has a +1 LS equipped
4) My fighter has 19 STR

My fighter's basic attack is therefore:
D20 + 2 + 1 + 4 = D20 + 7 VS AC (for proficiency, special LS and strength bonus)

Does that mean my Spinning Sweep attack has the same To-Hit (assuming the same weapon, and though it may have different damage)?

[Sagar]

When you are using the LS, yes. Those to hit bonuses are for any skill using that weapon.

That is my understanding, anyway. I may be wrong.

Now Ash's question about sly flourish... You only get to use a modifier once. So he would be at +8 damage (dex + cha) not + 12 (dex + dex + cha). The to hit is based on the weapon, the damage is based on the attack (in general. Some attacks have bonuses to hit).

[Shiz]

Sagar has it, but don't forget the extra fighter bonus from the weapon style.

Brun is +8 every time she swings her axe. Period. She doesn't get that bonus with the LS. Your example, Din, is not Brunhilde right? She has a +1 axe, not a +1 longsword. Fighters get this +1 to give them an edge over other classes in melee - as long as they stick to their chosen weapon style. Everyone gets the proficiency bonus unless they use a weapon for which they don't have proficiency. Amaril can pick up a great axe and swing it if he wants to, but he will not have the proficiency bonus (+2) and thereby be at a 10% disadvantage to someone with that proficiency.

Your to-hit will go up by 1 every even level. So will your AC and REF/FORT/WIS defenses. This is how they scale everything smoothly.

The system is designed so that rolling a 7 or less (8 for fighters) for a level appropriate monster will pretty much always miss (35%). A roll of 8 or higher has a good chance of hitting as long as you aren't attacking a mob's highest defense. Some have high AC, some have high REF, etc.

[Shiz]

Weapon specific:

Unarmed Melee: 1d20+3 vs AC [+3 str]; damage: 1d4+3 [str]
Shuriken: 1d20+7 vs AC [+4 dex][+3 proficiency]; damage: 1d6+4 [rogue][dex]; range: 6/12
Dagger: 1d20+8 vs AC [dex][rogue][+3 proficiency]; damage: 1d4+3 [str]
Short Sword: 1d20+7 vs AC [dex][+3 proficiency]; damage 1d6+3 [str]; range 10/20
Hand Crossbow: 1d20+6 vs AC [dex][+2 proficiency]; damage 1d6; range 10/20
Sling: 1d20+6 vs AC [dex][+2 proficiency]; damage 1d6; range 10/20Powers:

Deft Strike: 1d20+5 [dex][rogue] vs AC; damage: W+4 [dex]; can move 2 before attack
Sly Flourish: 1d20+5 [dex][rogue] vs AC; damage: W+6 [dex][cha]
Positioning Strike: 1d20+5 [dex][rogue] vs AC; damage: W+4 [dex]; slide target cha bonus squares
Trick Strike: 1d20+5 [dex][rogue] vs AC; damage: 3d4+4; slide target 1 square and can slide target 1 square each hit thereafter
Sneak Attack: +2d8 damage [backstabber][combat advantage]


Ok now I understand where the confusion is coming from. The above is from the Tess character sheet, the first one in the roster thread. The character creator template does ignore proficiency for the powers and I can see how that is confusing. The bonus there is only the stat related one. The bonus listed next to each weapon is the actual modifier you will use for every power with that weapon. Some powers have bonuses imbedded in them and read like this (an invented power purely for example):

Super Deft Strike: 1d20+7 [dex+2] [rogue] vs AC

That would mean the power gives you a +2 bonus for that attack. You then have to add weapon proficiency and any modifier for a magic weapon on top of that.

[Asharad]

Now Ash's question about sly flourish... You only get to use a modifier once. So he would be at +8 damage (dex + cha) not + 12 (dex + dex + cha). The to hit is based on the weapon, the damage is based on the attack (in general. Some attacks have bonuses to hit).

I'm not sure why that would be.

The whole point of a special attack is that it is special (even the at will powers, which realiztically, I suppose take the place of normal attacks). If I use a shurken for example (or however you spell it) in just a normal attack, I get a +4 due to my dex no matter what

When I use sly flourish, I get to add my dex modifer and my charisma modifier in addition to whatever damage the weapon is already doing. IN this case, the damage the weapon is already doing is the die roll +4 for my dex.

Essentially, if you don't count it twice, I am being penalized for having a high ability score. Well, not exactly negated, but certainly minimzed.

[EricStratton]

Reading the PHB, I really don't know. It *seems* to support Sagar's interpretation but it doesn't seem to be explicit. From pg 276:


Weapon Damage Dice:
A [W] in a damage

expression stands for your weapon?s damage dice.
(The weapon tables on pages 218?219 show damage
dice for all weapons.) The number before the [W] indicates
the number of times you roll your weapon dice.
If a power?s damage is ?2[W] + Strength modifier?
and you use a dagger (1d4 damage), roll 2d4, then add
your Strength modifier. If you use a heavy flail (2d6
damage) with the same power, roll 4d6, then add your
Strength modifier.
Damage Types:



In addition to normal damage,

such as the damage a weapon or a monster?s claws
deal, powers and other effects can deal specific types
of damage. For example, a hell hound?s breath deals
fire damage, a scorpion?s sting deals poison damage,
a mind flayer?s telepathic blast deals psychic damage,
and a wraith?s touch deals necrotic damage.
When a power deals a specific type of damage, the
power description specifies the type before the word
?damage.? A fireball deals 3d6 + Intelligence modifier
fire damage, for example. All the damage it deals
is fire damage. If a power doesn?t specify a damage
type, the damage has no type.

[GravenStone]

Is this gonna devolve into an argument worthy of 1st edition Shadowrun - wherein the rules were so sloppily constructed that you could in good faith interpret them several different ways.

*sits back with some popcorn*

[DinbinFanfoom]

Brun is +8 every time she swings her axe. Period. She doesn't get that bonus with the LS. Your example, Din, is not Brunhilde right? She has a +1 axe, not a +1 longsword.No, that wasn't Brun, just a hypothetical. OK, I think I have it all clear now.

The good thing about fighters is that they get a lot of weapon profs.

Edit: Yes, what was confusing me is that the specials in the character generator did not seem to take proficiency into account, which I think they should have, right?

[EricStratton]

Edit: Yes, what was confusing me is that the specials in the character generator did not seem to take proficiency into account, which I think they should have, right?
Just for weapons, right? Or do I need to look closer at how my spells work? :eek!:

[Shiz]

Just for weapons, right? Or do I need to look closer at how my spells work? :eek!:

No proficiency bonus from spells. Spells are only modified by your stat, the spell itself if it has one or a device.

Ash, Sly Flourish does not doubly apply your dex bonus as dmg.

ATK: +dex+prof
DMG: weapon+dex+cha.

From page 118 under Sly Flourish:
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier + Charisma modifier
damage

I find that quite clear and unambiguous. The [W] is the base weapon dmg from the equipment listing. That is universal throughout the PHB.

I don't think Sagar did the damage right. It should have been d4+dex+cha = 2+4+4 = 10 (assuming the 2 was the die roll since you cannot roll an 8 or 9 on a d4).

[DinbinFanfoom]

I don't think Sagar did the damage right. It should have been d4+dex+cha = 2+4+4 = 10 (assuming the 2 was the die roll since you cannot roll an 8 or 9 on a d4).
Rogue Shurikens are D6's, not D4's. (But you knew that) If he has BS feat, he adds 2d6 or something like that to sneak attacks, which I believe this was, given his assumption of CA (which may be wrong, given the init order).

[Shiz]

Backstabber changes the sneak attack 2d6s to 2d8s.

Backstabber [Rogue]
Prerequisites: Rogue, Sneak Attack class feature
Benefit: The extra damage dice from your Sneak
Attack class feature increase from d6s to d8s.

[Sagar]

Backstabber changes the sneak attack 2d6s to 2d8s.

Backstabber [Rogue]
Prerequisites: Rogue, Sneak Attack class feature
Benefit: The extra damage dice from your Sneak
Attack class feature increase from d6s to d8s.

Oops. Missed that.

I'll leave it as is, though.

[Lycos]

Is this gonna devolve into an argument worthy of 1st edition Shadowrun - wherein the rules were so sloppily constructed that you could in good faith interpret them several different ways.

*sits back with some popcorn*

That's no problem as long as the interpretation is consistent within the game. I can live with either ruling.

[Asharad]

Oops. Missed that.

I'll leave it as is, though.

I don't understand what it is you did wrong.

And I still think it is weird that using one of my at will attacks negates a weapon bonus I get.

In effect, every time I use a shurken it is like it is a +4 damage magic weapon. I don't see why it matters where that +4 comes from. Essentially, we are negating a class benefit I get everytime I use an at will attack. Which doesn't seem right.

[Shiz]

Where in the description of Sly Flourish does it say you get to add dex twice? +ATK=stat+proficiency+CA if any+magic bonus if any.

1[W] just means 1xbase weapon dmg. No modifiers are included in that syntax. The math is the same if you used your shortsword in melee with Sly Flourish. The damage would be d6+str+cha. Light blades use str, not dex, in melee since I cannot find anything that says otherwise.

If you didn't use Sly Flourish and just used a basic weapon attack, you would lose the +cha dmg only. Everything else would be the same.

[Sagar]

I don't understand what it is you did wrong.

And I still think it is weird that using one of my at will attacks negates a weapon bonus I get.

In effect, every time I use a shurken it is like it is a +4 damage magic weapon. I don't see why it matters where that +4 comes from. Essentially, we are negating a class benefit I get everytime I use an at will attack. Which doesn't seem right.

I rolled 2d6 for your sneak attack. You have backstabber feat which means I should have rolled 2d8 instead.

Your normal attack is 1[W] + dex. W = base weapon damage or 1d6 for the shuriken.

Sly attack is 1[W] + dex + cha or 1d6 + 4 + 4.
In essence, sly attack, for you, does 4 extra damage every time you use it.

[Asharad]

Where in the description of Sly Flourish does it say you get to add dex twice? +ATK=stat+proficiency+CA if any+magic bonus if any.

1[W] just means 1xbase weapon dmg. No modifiers are included in that syntax. The math is the same if you used your shortsword in melee with Sly Flourish. The damage would be d6+str+cha. Light blades use str, not dex, in melee since I cannot find anything that says otherwise.

If you didn't use Sly Flourish and just used a basic weapon attack, you would lose the +cha dmg only. Everything else would be the same.

Yeah, but then doesn't that mean I am being penalized for being talented?

Whenever I use a shuriken I get a +4 to my damage. This is due to my high dexterity, but sly flourish doesn't come into it.

So when I use a shuriken for a sly flourish I am saying that my +4 to damage should be the base weapon damage. Then you add the sly flourish modifiers.

Example:

I do a normal attack with a shuriken. I hit and I roll a 1d6 and add +4 to it. Its just an average, everyday attack. I pull out my shuriken, cuck it at you, hit and do 1d6+4.

I do a sly flourish. I hit and take my normal weapon damage, which we have established is 1d6+4 and then add my dex modifer and charisma modifier.

If we don't use the base weapon damage of 1d6+4 we are, it seems, saying I don't get the normal benefits I would get from using that weapon to begin with.

Which may be how it is, but which is kind of a bummer.

I mean, it's still a +8 per attack, which doesn't suck, but still...

[Asharad]

I rolled 2d6 for your sneak attack. You have backstabber feat which means I should have rolled 2d8 instead.

You owe me my two possible points! :) Its okay, I'll just hold onto them until I need them!


Your normal attack is 1[W] + dex. W = base weapon damage or 1d6 for the shuriken.

Sly attack is 1[W] + dex + cha or 1d6 + 4 + 4.
In essence, sly attack, for you, does 4 extra damage every time you use it.I guess it does make it easier and more consitstant to figure out damage that way.

It seems kinda stupid that they even bother with modifers for normal attacks. Who's going to ever make a normal attack? It's just confusing to noobs like me.

[DinbinFanfoom]

It seems kinda stupid that they even bother with modifers for normal attacks. Who's going to ever make a normal attack? You will the next time you get to perform an AoO.

[Asharad]

You will the next time you get to perform an AoO.

Is that what it is for then? I mean, practically?

[DinbinFanfoom]

Is that what it is for then? I mean, practically?Well, that's the only one that popped into my head, but I've been playing for all of what? 10 minutes? :lowrazz:

What about if all your specials are for light blades and you find yourself in a bar-fight with only a chair leg?

[Asharad]

Well, that's the only one that popped into my head, but I've been playing for all of what? 10 minutes? :lowrazz:

What about if all your specials are for light blades and you find yourself in a bar-fight with only a chair leg?

I run.

But yeah, that does make a lot more sense now.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Found a few more:

1) When charging
2) When it is triggered (some PC powers can trigger their allies to make a "free" basic attack)

[Shiz]

But yes, Ash, you generally should not just basic attack since every at-will attack is the same but a bit better. In your case, Sly Flourish is A LOT better because you pumped your CHA.

Din listed all the likely basic attack situations in addition to OAs.

Trask is actually a good example. Whenever I use my bow, it is just a basic attack but it does more damage and rolls against AC. My at-will ranged attack is not weapon-based (no prof +), does less damage than my bow, applies an ally ATK buff but it rolls vs REF. For some mobs AC > REF. Others, REF > AC. Against melee mobs, WIS tends to be the easiest to hit.

Of course, Trask has to learn for himself which mobs are which. No one has attacked REF on these guys yet (until I do this round) but I am guessing that brutish orcs have higher AC.

[Asharad]

There is (obviously) a lot about this game I don't understand, so these conversations are helpful.

All of this makes me want to join one of the games at the gamestore down the street.