Discussion 01 : 03 Discussions, Interrogations, and Traveling Shoes

[Greebo]

You are about to head into a series of skill challenges.

I do not see them being run as per DMG suggestions in either of the other threads, so I will present my interpretation here of how they should operate and how we'll run this first set. After they're completed, for good or ill, we'll post mortem and see if the techniques can be improved or if they totally suck and need to die.

These are a new concept to me - under old AD&D rules, you just said what you want to do, and rolled against the DM's sense of difficulty.

Skill challenges, however, work more like encounters in that there is initiative, and there are certain skills that are more likely or less likely to succeed, some that have no useful contribution, and some that trigger immediate failure. To "win" the challenge you must have a certain number of successful rolls before you get a certain number of failed attempts. Victory brings positive results. Losses can make the overall adventure harder, or have more immediate consequences like lost healing surges, delayed travel, or diminished reputation with local officials.

What I will tell you:
1) That you are entering into a skill challenge
2) The complexity - how many successes you need to win, how many failures cause you to lose.
3) What skills are key

Example: "Skill challenge - Rope Climb across the chasm : 8/4 (8 successes needed before 4 failures). Key skills: Athletics, Endurance" Some challenges will allow other skill options if you have a certain success. For example, a successful athletics check that you are able to climb the rope up the cliff might open up an acrobatics check to nimbly leap from one ledge to another."

This is a *party* encounter. On your round, you state your chosen skill to use, and your intended result. You must take some sort of action on your turn, and you must have a plausible use for the chosen skill. If you attempt diplomacy with the rope ladder, you will fail. Period.

If group checks are to be made - that being where *everyone* needs to roll - rolls over 10 give +2 to the lead char's roll. Example: The current player chooses to leap the chasm, athletics DC 20. His skill is +8. This is a group action, but the current player is the lead. You all roll. 2 of you get over 10, so that gives another +4 to the lead, making his roll +12.

If you give me the skill, usage, and intended outcome, you will roll normally. Creative presentation can earn rewards - if you actually come up with a good speech for diplomacy, or a creative description of how you're going to jump off the ledge and land on the evil halfling, you may merit a bonus (+2 standard). Really bad ideas, likewise, may be similarly penalized, as will cases of just saying, "Ok I'll roll diplomacy". Tha'ts a great way to lose 10% off your chance of success. ;)

So ... prepare a different kind of encounter! :D

[Greebo]

Please note - on your turn you may use only one skill. Action points are not applicable in skill challenges.

[attriel]

You have no idea how much I wanted to say "live together, die alone" :o

[Greebo]

After yesterday's successful but somewhat fitful first go, I'm inclined to allow posting in advance, but only for the next upcoming turn.

But for skill challenges, because they are based on # of successes vs. # of failures, once posted and rolled, no change will be allowed unless the challenge itself changes in some manner.

[Sagar]

I wanna be bad cop!!!

[Quervo]

for skill challenges I think you have the right idea.. we should post in order and have our post resolved before moving on...

[Sagar]

It works better from a RP standpoint and makes it easier to adjudicate. It might take a bit more time, but I don't have a problem with that.

[Greebo]

Sagar you have posted your action out of turn (Duma has a 20).

Possible alternative solution...if a player doesn't post an action for a period of time to be determined, I could count it as an automatic failure to allow the group to move on.

[Sagar]

Sagar you have posted your action out of turn (Duma has a 20).

Possible alternative solution...if a player doesn't post an action for a period of time to be determined, I could count it as an automatic failure to allow the group to move on.

Counting it as a failure would be unfair, I think. Part of PBP is that we post when we can and, since we work, sometimes that takes a while.

I knew I was going to be unavailable for a few hours so I posted in advance so it would be there.

You did say you were inclined to allow posting in advance.
I figured that one move early would be acceptable.

[Greebo]

Yeah I know I said that - and you replied that you felt posting in order lent to the RP more effectively...and then posted out of order...

I confuse easily, dude! ;)

[Asharad]

Somebody ask who sirruth is.

[Asharad]

Specifically we need to know where Siruth was headed after the raid.

[Quervo]

do we get anything for grossly exceeding the probable DC??

[Greebo]

do we get anything for grossly exceeding the probable DC??

1 cookie. Stats: It's tasty. Effects: You are fed for one hour. Value: Er, where'd it go? Oops, the DM stole it and ate it already.

Sorry, no cookie for you!

[Quervo]

FYI to all in the party, you gain a +1 racial bonus to Diplomacy from me... (Half-elf racial ability)

[attriel]

In the future ... is there any way I can stand off to the side and just roll for supporting someone else's point? like give them a +2 bonus if i somehow succeed?

because I keep failing and failing BAD !!! I'm a menace to my own group!!!

[Greebo]

Those only apply in group skill checks. This particular skill challenge is a one on one challenge.

The next one (and last for a while) is going to encourage more cooperative operations.

[Quervo]

leader - check
hide out - check
why prisoners - check
undead?? - half check
anything else we need i cant think of to ask?

[Zyzzyx]

"Do you have any Grey Poupon?"

[Kiir]

Attriel and I will probably be AFK till afternoon, it is doctor appointment day for everyone except me.

We'll both go along with the will of the group as to what we do.

[Greebo]

This next (and last for a while) skill challenge is somewhat different from the ones you've experienced so far. This is a Travel skill challenge, focusing on Perception, Nature and Endurance.

On each round, you, as a party, will establish a "set" of checks you wish to make. You may choose to roll a primary check, or that you are assisting a check (not rolling). To assist, someone must be intending to actually roll.

Additionally, in each round, you will all have to make an endurance check.

So for example, Sagar may choose to roll Perception, while Asharad rolls Nature. Quervo and Atty may choose to assist Sagar while Tab assists Ash.

Assisting gives a +2 to the primary roller's check.

There will be no initiative. Instead, if you intend to roll as a primary, state your intent. If you intend to assist, wait until someone states their intent as a primary, and declare your support.

For each round, each of you only need to post once - just be sure to include your endurance roll FOR THAT ROUND in your post, or I will roll it for you once all 5 people have stated their actions.

So a sample would be:
Me: Round 1
Sagar: I'll roll perception. Endurance roll 7+2=9
Asharad: I'll roll Nature. Endurance roll 18+3=21
Tab: I'll roll nature too. Endurance roll 9+2=11
Atty: I'll assist sagar Endurance roll 1+3=4 (fumble)
Quervo: I'll assist Ash. Endurance roll 20+5=25

I will then give you the results of each primary check, and the results of your endurance checks.

Successes get you closer to your objective.
Failures will cost you time and or healing surges. Too many failures, and you get lost, which may result in an unexpected confrontation.

[Shiz]

Sweet.

[Quervo]

well post you base nature and perception bonuses

I think it best he with highest bonus be the primary

Nature +3
Perception +8

[Sagar]

Raj: Perception 1, Nature 0

"Hello. My name is Rajkelleran and I will be your assistant today..."

Hmmm Endurance 0. This will be challenging to be sure...

[Greebo]

If it's any encouragement, if you fail it the first time, subsequent repeats are (4/3) not (8/3). :)

[Asharad]

Endurance: 1
Perception:4
nature: 4

[Asharad]

Although, why do we need to track them? The goblin captive told us where they are. The castle is more or less familiar to me.

[Greebo]

The goblin captive gave you a crude map that will help you find them, not a google maps result.

[Greebo]

For my quick reference:
Tor Shere
Endurance +2 Nature +4 Perception +4

Rajkelleran Stormclaw
Endurance +1 Nature +0 Perception +1

Urvi
Endurance +4 Nature +9 Perception +7

Jacoby
Endurance +2 Nature +3 Perception +8

Duma
Endurance -1 Nature +4 Perception +4

[Greebo]

Attriel and I will probably be AFK till afternoon, it is doctor appointment day for everyone except me.

We'll both go along with the will of the group as to what we do.

I will provide the rolls for these two if you all decide what they'll contribute.

[Sagar]

Urvi will be our primary nature person.
Jacoby should be primary perception.

Duma should help with nature.

Raj and Tor Shere should help with perception.

[Greebo]

I'm sorry, I screwed up.

Only ONE character can roll primary for Perception and Nature each round. You cant' have two people rolling for either of those.

[Asharad]

What is the endurance section of this challenge for?

I mean, we walk to the mountains and find the path. Putting aside for a minute we hopefull could find the mountains with no checks, we have a basic map to the path we are supposed to take, we know a bit about the place we are going and the place we are going is a keep, so hard to hide, although- granted -one assumes a ruin so maybe a bit hard.

Is walking somewhere a skill challenge? It seems to be greatly complicating something that is fairly basic. If we fail (and I failed a couple of times) what are the penalties? I get tired? I have been defeated by walking?

I guess I don't get the actual point, in terms of how it translates into what is happening to our characters, of this particular skill challenge.

[Greebo]

BAH
I misread my misread.

You were right Sagar - you roll, and if you get a 10 or higher you add +2.

Same applies to everyone else - roll to assist.

[Greebo]

What is the endurance section of this challenge for?

I mean, we walk to the mountains and find the path.

There's bad weather, high altitudes, tiresome terrain (climbing, swimming, etc.) and other traveling considerations to take into account as well. My read on this skill challenge is that it's attempting to incorporate those factors into the overall challenge of trying to find an unknown destination for the first time.

[DinbinFanfoom]

I think he's looking at it as an "extended hike"... when one of you fails endurance checks enough, you get tired or something. I think it's interesting that he's "fleshed out" this event that is normall glossed over, but from a RP sense, it could be fun... as long as you guys play along.

After 8 hours of walking (Endurance roll: 3+3) , Fandango starts complaining about foot-blisters.
"Where's the !$&@#(* inn?!?" he whines.

Baladir (Endurance roll: 12+7) sighs. "I'm fine here, but we can stop and make camp if you need to, Fan..."

"It's because you value fashion over function, Fandango." Trask (Endurance roll: 14+3) supplies. "If you'd wear some more sensible footwear, this wouldn't happen."

"I zuppoze you vant me to carry za baby..." Brun (Endurance roll: 8+13) growls.

"Wouldja?" Fandango perks up a bit.

[Greebo]

BAH
I misread my misread.

You were right Sagar - you roll, and if you get a 10 or higher you add +2.

Same applies to everyone else - roll to assist.

In case you missed this ash - need you to roll to asssist Urvi on nature, at least for round 2. Round 1 she killed it.

[Asharad]

I think this adventure must have been written before they got a handle on skill challenges.

I mean, a skill challenge should have the results that actually matter.

It's not like we aren't going to find Castle Rivenroar. I guess we could get hopelessly lost, but then Greebo has to come up with an entirely new adventure for us cause we have blown this one.

At least, however, the weird mechanic of having to find the place that we already have a pretty good idea the location of adds some flavor.

The endurance aspect of this challenge doesn't lend anything to it- it doesn't matter if we get tired. It doesn't matter if we get hurt.

If I sprain my ankle on a level 5 rock of tripping, I just surge up. And then I rest and get my surge back. it's a mechanic that makes no difference. I don't think for a second one of us is going to drown in a river, never to be seen again. So there isn't a point.

Also, there is nothing more boring than roleplaying something I can do in real life. If I was in a whellchair I might love walking skill challenges. Since I'm not...seems silly.

But, I never liked the Sims for the same reason. I don't need a game to do all the stuff I do anyway.

It begs the question if later on they put in an eating and a defectating skill challenge.

I actually thought the last skill challenges had the same failings. For the adventue to continue we had to pass it. Otherwise, the guy doesn't trust us, doesn't want us to help and **** those townspeople anyway, we don't know them.

At least that one gave Greebo a bit to work with, which he then turned into quite a lot and made fun.

This one...not so much. Not the DM's fault, its just a silly thing to have included in the module. do they even call them that anymore?

[Sagar]

Actually, it does matter.

If you fail endurance, you lose a surge. It's general fatigue.
So when we get to the Castle, you could be down 3-4 surges. That can make a big difference in the adventure.

Also, if we get lost, it will take longer to get there - more people could be eaten.
And we have to make more endurance checks. Possibly more fatigued when we get there - fewer surges available.

I think it's pretty clever.

[Greebo]

I think this adventure must have been written before they got a handle on skill challenges.

I mean, a skill challenge should have the results that actually matter.
I don't agree, and I think they do.

It's not like we aren't going to find Castle Rivenroar. I guess we could get hopelessly lost, but then Greebo has to come up with an entirely new adventure for us cause we have blown this one.

At least, however, the weird mechanic of having to find the place that we already have a pretty good idea the location of adds some flavor.
You may find it, but if you fail to find it on the first go, the result is you run into a potentially nasty "random encounter". This type of skill challenge is designed to replace the simplistic mechanic of "the DM rolls a D20 to see if you have a random encounter". Fail this, run into bad guys of some sort. Fail again, run into more.

The endurance aspect of this challenge doesn't lend anything to it- it doesn't matter if we get tired. It doesn't matter if we get hurt.

If I sprain my ankle on a level 5 rock of tripping, I just surge up. And then I rest and get my surge back. it's a mechanic that makes no difference. I don't think for a second one of us is going to drown in a river, never to be seen again. So there isn't a point.
If the party blows half their surges and then stumbles into a family of wyvern (sp?) out for a hunt, it makes a difference...

I actually thought the last skill challenges had the same failings. For the adventue to continue we had to pass it. Otherwise, the guy doesn't trust us, doesn't want us to help and **** those townspeople anyway, we don't know them.

Actually, had you failed the first one, you'ld have been given the offer for half price and the town would have provided no aid at any time until you actually got the job done. Had you failed the second, the map would have led you to a trap.

At least that one gave Greebo a bit to work with, which he then turned into quite a lot and made fun.

This one...not so much. Not the DM's fault, its just a silly thing to have included in the module. do they even call them that anymore?

I blame myself for your perception - I should have done a better job explaining what was at stake with this one, up front.

[Zyzzyx]

I think it's pretty clever.

Perhaps, but it does some quite easy to breeze through. Maybe just cuz there haven't been any failures, as there were for the prisoner/diplo skill checks. *shrug*

[Greebo]

What's gonna piss me off is I spent about an hour setting up the map in case of failure...and I may not get to use it.

[DinbinFanfoom]

It's like religion. Kinda. Just. Trust. The. DM. :D

[Asharad]

What's gonna piss me off is I spent about an hour setting up the map in case of failure...and I may not get to use it.


I am trying to help you out, there!

The random encounter thing (ie using a failed endurance to set off a random encounter) makes a lot of sense.

The surge thing, not so much. I mean, like I said, if we get close and I'm down to a few surges, I'm going to suggest we rest for a bit.

And not your fault, there aren't a lot of places to explain this stuff.

[Greebo]

Sure, you can get to the castle and rest up, but if you have a lot of fails you lose potentially a LOT of surges, and if you then have a nasty encounter, then fail again, and have another nasty encounter, and you forget to rest up between...well...the *potential* is there.

I think it does lose something in the PbP format we have here though...

[DinbinFanfoom]

I think the problem is is that it's a new mechanic, isn't easy to explain (especially the first time) and the players don't see the mechanism "behind" the DM screen (the aforementioned map, potential encounters, etc.). It only looks "boring" if you consistently never encounter any of the interesting "scenery" that the tests might provide. :D

I can't wait for the "Group 5 Meets the Donners" encounter, when they hit the snowstorm in the pass!

[Greebo]

I think the problem is is that it's a new mechanic, isn't easy to explain (especially the first time) and the players don't see the mechanism "behind" the DM screen (the aforementioned map, potential encounters, etc.). It only looks "boring" if you consistently never encounter any of the interesting "scenery" that the tests might provide. :D

I can't wait for the "Group 5 Meets the Donners" encounter, when they hit the snowstorm in the pass!

I KNOW - I mean, I did the map and EVERYTHING!!

[DinbinFanfoom]

I KNOW - I mean, I did the map and EVERYTHING!!
Heh, just be careful about any 52+ dimension maps... I don't think it's built to handle above zz/52.
Although I hope to have multi-square mobs live soon... halfway there last night.

[Greebo]

Awesome! Can't wait!

[Sagar]

No map is wasted. You can recycle them later for random encounters :)

[Greebo]

I intend to. For one thing, each trip back to town you make is another chance to spring this on you. For another, it's a hefty chunk of xp for you guys...
... if you live.

MUIHAHAHHAHAHA
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
MUUHHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAH

[Greebo]

Shere, disheartened by how ineffective he's been in general so far, drifts to the back of the party to take rear guard.

"I have some luck at stealth and noticing things, but lately Sehanine has seen fit to punish my presumption and set me in my place, so I may perhaps not be the one to go looking right now."

So, what, you want me to denerf you in the die roller code? ;)

[attriel]

So, what, you want me to denerf you in the die roller code? ;)

lol! i knew those rolls weren't natural!!! give me back my second digit dammit!

[Greebo]

Waiting on y'all to tell me what your choice of actions is.

[Sagar]

No. Just a busy day.

[Quervo]

normally for blind stealth and perception insight rolls the dm would make those... no reason i should know if i noticed anything or could hide with a flip more that you would tell me.

IE. I didnt want to know before hand if i was blind as a bat and stepping on every stick i could find

[Greebo]

I've got mixed opinions on that concept. While I see the point you're making, what you have no way of knowing is the DC level involved, or if there was anything worth knowing.

By rolling your own in some cases, it can inspire a sense of confidence that isn't justified (high Die roll still not enough to beat the DC) or a sense of insecurity with no cause (low die roll, but nothing to fear anyway).

I'll take it under advisement though. :)

[Quervo]

yeah it is different for every dm, that is just MY feeling for my games. but if you want us rolling search and stealth checks no problem.

[Greebo]

Also - passive skill checks (insight/perception) are just that - passive. In this instance, you were actively searching, in which case I lean towards letting you have the control of the outcome.

Well, sort of. ;)

[Greebo]

FYI at 4:30 est I'm leaving for the day and will not be online again until late. RPGA game tonight.