Discussion 01 : 04 The Chamber of Flame Unbound

[Greebo]

Ok the goblin probably didn't *really* say that, but...comic effect and all. ;)

I decided to include a map with fog of war, because as much as I love Dinbin's tool for managing combat, it isn't practical for helping you map out your progress through the dungeon, which you can tell will be rather large.

Whenever I DM, I encourage (but not require) people to make maps to help them (with appropriate skill checks for erroneous notations).

Since that also isn't feasible here, I thought this might work as a way to help you see where you've been and what's available.

And GIMP rocks for creating a fog of war! :D

[Quervo]

I am going to be In and Out most of today... My back doc @ 9 and baby appt @ 1 both will be about 2 hrs or so.

[DinbinFanfoom]

I decided to include a map with fog of war, because as much as I love Dinbin's tool for managing combat, it isn't practical for helping you map out your progress through the dungeon, which you can tell will be rather large.
If a map extends beyond screen size, it should provide scroll bars. That said, there is still the 52x52 issue. One way Sagar gets around this is by havine an overall map (also in the tool, second scene), where each square represents 10' square and the party is a single character icon. Ask him how it worked.

[Greebo]

Dude I'm *NOT* dissing your tool at all, believe me. Your tool KICKS for encounter management.

I'm just not going to create a map to cover a dungeon who's map is over 96 tiles wide and half as tall and has a lot of passages and details that don't represent well in the tool or are needed for encounters.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Dude I'm *NOT* dissing your tool at all, believe me. Your tool KICKS for encounter management.Nonono, I didn't take it that way at all. :)
I'm just not going to create a map to cover a dungeon who's map is over 96 tiles wide and half as tall and has a lot of passages and details that don't represent well in the tool or are needed for encounters.Understood. Mayhaps I'll get it there someday. :P

Actually, now that I think about it... it might not be hard to create an "overview" type thing that shows the tiles at an even lower (higher?) scale... say 20x20pixels, for dungeon-level maps... It's just scaling, really... wouldn't be hard.

[Kiir]

FYI I'll be mostly off today, my Mom is here so I am spending time with her.

[Shiz]

This is a really interesting group you guys have. Low initiative, no stealth or thievery. Good dps, though.

[Quervo]

HEY I have thievery

[Greebo]

OOC: Going to get lunch, but before I post my action:

How wide is the area we're in? two three ten people wide?

Trying to figure out what I can do based on being the rear guard. Can I move up and engage? am I forced into range until someone falls or moves? Are we bigger than a breadbox? Where are we on a map?

You may move through but not stop in an ally occupied square. You may not move through an enemy occupied square. Unless/until someone force moves or kills one of those hobgoblins, you are effectively unable to get close enough to attack with melee.

Jacoby and Urvi can try to bull rush, which will push the hobgobs back 1 square on success, which will still be a problem, because you can't cut across corners diagonally.

[Greebo]

Oh, you CAN stand in an ally square if the ally is prone. You can stand in a helpless enemy square.

Now what could happen is Raj could step back, Jacoby could shift back, and you could move forward after that...

[Greebo]

Oh, yeah, I guess I should have pointed out you could also delay your action (too late now, sorry).

If you, Atty, delayed action, then raj or duma could have moved back, then jacoby could have slid back, then you could have moved up, but you'ld be last in initiative for the rest of the fight

[attriel]

Yeah, no I was just trying to figure out how big the corridor was to decide which of the alternatives I had in mind would work.

narrow -- not many :o

[Greebo]

Oh yeah its a 10' wide corridor so in combat you really can't fit more than 2 abrest.

[Greebo]

Wow. What a terrible round.

[Greebo]

Question:

If I see a situation where I feel 1 or more of you might be making a serious tactical mistake, do you want me to stop and ask you about it? Or should I continue as I have been, and play the actions as written?

The reason I ask is - well, there were two decisions that I think I should have called to your attention, and I wouldn't say anything, but to be quite frank, Jacoby should be dead. As in below negative bloodied dead.

First, Quervo, I *think* you could have shifted and then moved as a double move, and since you would have only been passing through, that would have been legal, and safe.

Second, and I'm less sure here, but if Kiir had taken her other power, since her mark creates an interrupt, wouldn't her push effect have prevented the hobgoblins from attacking Q when he moved?

For my own part, I'd rather say, "Ok if you do this, that may happen, are you sure?" and NOT play with the results, having confirmation in hand - but if the group would prefer otherwise, then so be it, I'll play it out like I roll it.

[Quervo]

Well that sucked...

Ok first of all... The Bard would never had Volunteer to be in the front. He has NO melee combat abilities...

Second here are the rules for a Shift, also you can not shift into an occupied square. So I was F****D from the start with nothing to do but run to start with. Now then assuming I live, Jacoby will NEVER be in the front AGAIN.

Shift
Moving through a fierce battle is dangerous; you
must be careful to avoid a misstep that gives your foe
a chance to strike a telling blow. The way you move
safely when enemies are nearby is to shift.
SHIFT: MOVE ACTION
✦ Movement: Move 1 square.
✦ No Opportunity Attacks: If you shift out of a
square adjacent to an enemy, you don’t provoke an
opportunity attack.
✦ Difficult Terrain: Because each square of difficult
terrain costs 1 extra square to enter, you can’t
normally shift into a square of difficult terrain, unless
you’re able to shift multiple squares or you’re able to
ignore the effects of difficult terrain.
✦ Special Movement Modes: You can’t shift when
using a form of movement that requires a skill check.
For ex-ample, if you’re climbing or swimming, you
can’t shift if you would need to make an Athletics
check to use that kind of movement.
You might find it useful to first shift away from an
adjacent enemy, then walk or run.

[EricStratton]

Well that sucked...

Ok first of all... The Bard would never had Volunteer to be in the front. He has NO melee combat abilities...

Second here are the rules for a Shift, also you can not shift into an occupied square. So I was F****D from the start with nothing to do but run to start with. Now then assuming I live, Jacoby will NEVER be in the front AGAIN.
Did anyone specify or suggest a marching order?

Anyway, Quervo, you can shift into an ally occupied square as long as you're doing a double move. Also when you do a double move it has to be two moves of the same type. I assume that means two walks, two runs, or two shifts. So you could've double shifted to F13. Here are the rules for double move:

DOUBLE MOVE
✦Same Move Action: To double move, you have to
take the same move action twice in a row on the
same turn.
✦One Speed: When you double move, add the speeds
of the two move actions together and then move.
✦Occupied Squares: When you double move, your
first move action can end in an ally?s space, because
you?re not stopping. Your second move action can?t
end in an ally?s space, as normal.
✦Difficult Terrain: When you double move, you
can sometimes move over more squares of difficult
terrain than normal, because you add the speeds
of the two move actions together and then move.
For example, if your speed is 5, you can enter only
2 squares of difficult terrain when you walk. If you
double move by walking twice in a row, you can
enter 5 squares of difficult terrain, not 4.

[Greebo]

Well y'all had 30 hours to "Prepare marching orders for me please. Narrow formation (5' corridor), Standard (10' corridor) and broad formations. ". Not having a definitive list, I tried to do my best. Shere claimed back, Urvi claimed front, so I took a stab at placement otherwise. I missed that you said 4th or back, sorry Shane. I have Duma and Raj in my head as casters, so the Bard got the short stick. I should have put Duma up front, not you - that was my bad.

How about we do this:
Reset. Start this fight over, and this time y'all give me a marching order so I have a clear guide as to how to place you in 5, 10 and 15+ foot wide settings. We'll clear the thread back to the initiative rolls.

One time only, get out of jail free card.

[Quervo]

enh, it is no biggie, if the bard doesnt make it then the party may find a prisoner that would be willing to help along the way. I dont get attached to my toons to much. besides he is only first level, and we are squishy at that point

[Greebo]

Still, I feel bad for messing up the starting order.

I put it to the group - reset this fight - its only one round after all - or keep going?

Please vote reset or keep going, not "i'll go with the majority" please.

[Quervo]

Keep Going

[Sagar]

As for your question about tactics, Greebo.
The way I played it is I offered advice and questioned bad calls for the first 2 levels, played nice for another 2 levels as the party learned the game and how to work with each other.

At level 5, I assume they should know better and let their mistakes stand.
I suppose I should tell them that.

[Sagar]

Crap... gotta run. I'll read the combat when I get back.

[Greebo]

As for your question about tactics, Greebo.
The way I played it is I offered advice and questioned bad calls for the first 2 levels, played nice for another 2 levels as the party learned the game and how to work with each other.

At level 5, I assume they should know better and let their mistakes stand.
I suppose I should tell them that.

Nah, let em think you're still nice!

[Greebo]

Votes to Keep Going: Quervo
Votes to Start Over: ---
Votes Not Cast: Kiir, Attriel, Sagar, Asharad

Either way, I'll give input when I see potential disaster for a while, per Sagar's sage advice - but I'm not pulling any more punches.

I'll be heading out soon for my uber geek game.

[Asharad]

I don't have an opinion either way. We are pretty early in so I fine if we restart or fine if we press on. I thought the avenger and uvri were going to be upfront, although I don't think I actually based this on anything.

[Sagar]

We can keep going.

How far do the brazier tracks extend? To the south wall where the doors are or do they run diagonally all the way to us?

How hot does the fire look?

And I will be AFK until this evening.. heading to a wedding about an hour away.

[Kiir]

I have no opinion either way, but since it is Quervo's character and he votes press on, I'll go with his decision.

That being said I am afk most of the rest of the day, and likely won't be on most of tomorrow since Desmond, Eloise and I are flying down to Atlanta.

[Greebo]

We can keep going.

How far do the brazier tracks extend? To the south wall where the doors are or do they run diagonally all the way to us?

How hot does the fire look?

And I will be AFK until this evening.. heading to a wedding about an hour away.

The tracks run parallel to the eastern and western walls, not to you.

The fire looks ... like fire.

[Greebo]

I don't have an opinion either way. We are pretty early in so I fine if we restart or fine if we press on. I thought the avenger and uvri were going to be upfront, although I don't think I actually based this on anything.

All of your at will attacks are range based and your encounters are ranged bursts. If you are in the front lines and adjacent to an enemy when you attack with ranged (which I think applies to ranged bursts), you grant an OA to adjacent enemies. You almost certainly should not be front line. Shere, on the other hand, has at least 1 melee (flail) attack.

Other recommendations:

My suggestions then at this point would be for Duma to step back one and attack from the rear, leaving room for Jacoby to stand once he recovers in the spot you vacate.

As a group, you really need to separate those hobgoblins, because of their adjacent ally bonus. Bull rush, skills which push and slide enemies - those are your friends right now. On her next turn, Urvi can bull rush the 2nd hobgoblin and push it east 1 (bull rush causes you to slide towards the enemy granting no OA).

[attriel]

I would move up, but I thought I'd try saving the bard first. I think thta failed though, so next round i'll close for combat

as for restarts, *shrug* either way is cool with me. Jacoby's the one voted most likely to die, and he;s OK with it. If everyone dies, we can just be the next group in the inn ;)

[Quervo]

Bad news sagar, Jacoby is now dead dead, no save required.

UNCONSCIOUS
✦ You’re helpless.
✦ You take a –5 penalty to all defenses.
✦ You can’t take actions.
✦ You fall prone, if possible.
✦ You can’t flank an enemy.

your roll of an 8 would hit, 13 -5 = 8. I only needed 2 hps to be Bloodied in negative HP's which is insta dead no save required.

[Greebo]

Bad news sagar, Jacoby is now dead dead, no save required.

UNCONSCIOUS
✦ You?re helpless.
✦ You take a ?5 penalty to all defenses.
✦ You can?t take actions.
✦ You fall prone, if possible.
✦ You can?t flank an enemy.

your roll of an 8 would hit, 13 -5 = 8. I only needed 2 hps to be Bloodied in negative HP's which is insta dead no save required.

:rolleyes: *mutter mutter*

Ok yeah you're right but uh...uh... Shere was standing over you, which was...uh...granting you cover from attacks. Yeah, that's it! Since this was friendly fire I counted it as applicable and I, uh, forgot, yeah, to note that in the combat log, so the blast just missed you. Yay!

Look I know I said I'm not pulling any more punches, and I don't intend to, but your state of unconsciousness and bad overall starting location in this is due to my screwup, so unless you really *want* to be dead this round...

[Quervo]

It happens, I should have pointed it out as soon as you posted the first round. Not when my turn came at the end of it. That being the case I am not upset, chalking it up as a learning experience. For all of us, hint AOE in Party can be BAD... but not always.

I sent you a PM to see what we do next.

[Sagar]

You were a prone opponent vs a ranged attack. You get +2 to defenses.
The attack is also a horizontal arc. I deliberately aimed high to avoid you which should be easy since you were so close to me.

[Greebo]

You were a prone opponent vs a ranged attack. You get +2 to defenses.
The attack is also a horizontal arc. I deliberately aimed high to avoid you which should be easy since you were so close to me.

Technically, burning spray isn't ranged. And the ranged defense is vs non adjacent.

[Quervo]

for the next 4 rounds i will make my saves here on one post so you guys dont have to wait for me to keep moving on.

We talked and will say jacoby was missed by the spray at this time.


Woohoo at the end of round 4 Jacoby will spend a surge and stand up.

[Shiz]

You guys know that Group 3 is close to being beaten too? Sagar stopped giving us the benfit of the doubt and we made some tactical blunders (cleric followed tanks, expected to be able to shift into what we should have known was difficult terrain, etc.) and REALLY bad rolls.

[Quervo]

OUCH group 3 is almost at a TPW...

[attriel]

You were a prone opponent vs a ranged attack. You get +2 to defenses.
The attack is also a horizontal arc. I deliberately aimed high to avoid you which should be easy since you were so close to me.

yeah, but technically a reflex save to dodge the blast ... dead people dodge slowly. thats why the zombies always lose in those movies :o

[DinbinFanfoom]

OUCH group 3 is almost at a TPW...
To be fair, the Paladin is back up (barely) now. But for the record? If your DM makes a thread called "Fluffy Bunny Tea-Time", proceed very, VERY cautiously. :P If the title is called "Dragon Cave of Death Encounter", you can probably let the cleric go home early to start making the martini's and put out some hor's d'ouvres.

[Asharad]

This:



27 HG Soldier 2 (42 dmg; Marked: Urvi; bloodied; ) (had wrong round)
18 Urvi (28 dmg; 6 hps; +2 all def EONT-Urvi4)
17 Shere (0 dmg; 28 hps; 1 AP)
16 Duma (0 dmg; 25 hps; 1 AP)
14 Goblin Shooter 1 (0 dmg)
14 Goblin Shooter 2 (0 dmg)
10 Jacoby (14 dmg; -10 hps; 1 AP; dying@G11; not dead despite rumors to the contrary)
-->9 Raj (0 dmg; 24 hps; 1 AP; Next melee hit against Raj takes 3 fire EONT-Raj 3)

Is helpful.

[Greebo]

Yeah, for me especially!

[DinbinFanfoom]

Urvi will take a moment to kneel down (does that grant any bonus to defenses from smaller target?) and heal the bard.You might be able to "go defensive" (+2 to defenses, -4 to ATK) and combine that with a heal... might have to look that up and get DM ruling.

[attriel]

OK, wtf is up with these dice????

At least Urvi didn't end up burying her arm in Jacoby like Shere did, but damn. I'm thinking 10's and 11's just arent' gonna make it through the battle :o

[DinbinFanfoom]

10's and 11's? Have you seen Group 3 lately? :floored:

[Greebo]

You might be able to "go defensive" (+2 to defenses, -4 to ATK) and combine that with a heal... might have to look that up and get DM ruling.

Total Defense, +2 to all defenses, is a standard action, as is aid another. WIthout using the Action Point, not possible. Kneeling offers no added defense without cover.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Total Defense, +2 to all defenses, is a standard action, as is aid another. WIthout using the Action Point, not possible. Kneeling offers no added defense without cover.
Ah Ok, thanks for clarification.

[Greebo]

OK, wtf is up with these dice????

At least Urvi didn't end up burying her arm in Jacoby like Shere did, but damn. I'm thinking 10's and 11's just arent' gonna make it through the battle :o
Stabilizing the dying is a 15. That means the player no longer has to save vs. death (unless they take more damage).

Healing a character DC10 allows them to use second wind without gaining the +2 to defense. You can't "heal" an unconscious character with healing because they aren't conscious to use Second Wind.

So you can stabilize someone who's unconscious, but it takes either magical healing or an extended rest to bring a person out of unconsciousness.

So its a really good thing Jacoby is about to get a 20...

[Shiz]

11 should hit a normal, unbuffed enemy of your level.

[attriel]

Stabilizing the dying is a 15. That means the player no longer has to save vs. death (unless they take more damage).

Healing a character DC10 allows them to use second wind without gaining the +2 to defense. You can't "heal" an unconscious character with healing because they aren't conscious to use Second Wind.

So you can stabilize someone who's unconscious, but it takes either magical healing or an extended rest to bring a person out of unconsciousness.

So its a really good thing Jacoby is about to get a 20...

Well, I was just going with "huh, this guy is bleeding out" need-to-fix him. I don't remember what the heal skill does in particular, but I'm fairly sure that the unconcious and bleeding guy is the only one who can do anything else in particular :o

[Greebo]

Dying in 4e means you are unconscious, 0 or less hps (death at your negative bloodied score). You roll to save vs death each round. If you fail death save (9 or less) 3 times, you die. You do not bleed out (lose hps).

[attriel]

Dying in 4e means you are unconscious, 0 or less hps (death at your negative bloodied score). You roll to save vs death each round. If you fail death save (9 or less) 3 times, you die. You do not bleed out (lose hps).

he's making his three rolls, it's like 3e bleeding.

anyway, it doesn't matter

[Greebo]

Goblins are cowardly. When they get close to death, they run, if they get the chance, and since y'all changed targets...

[attriel]

Well, I say we consolidate. Unless we split up we're never going to nail both of them. and if we split up, we're all just gonna die.

[Greebo]

Ok I have to confess, I didn't deliberately try to psych you out. Instead, I forgot for a moment about the braziers, and then once I'd posted that combat was over, it occurred to me that they were still active.

So I ran with it. :)

[attriel]

feel free to click on the spoiler as if I told ya'll.

Two words.
First Word.
One Syllable.

...

[Asharad]

Two words.
First Word.
One Syllable.

...

I'm sure this means something. I have no idea what.

[Greebo]

I think atty's envisioning Duma, standing on the stairs, looking at the symbols, being very quiet, but trying to relay to the party what it is he's reading without actually speaking... :)

[Asharad]

haha...okay, yeah that is funny. That's what I should have done.

I knew there was a joke I wasn't getting!

[Greebo]

Your confusion is understandable. Attriel isn't usually funny. ;)