Invisibility

[Greebo]

Ok - question for the DMs and rules experts...

I've got an NPC who can turn invisible.

Under old school rules, an attack violated invisibility. This seems less clear in 4e.

What effect does making an attack have on invisibility in 4e and where is it covered?

[Zyzzyx]

Fairly certain that making an attack while invisible does negate the being invisible bit.

[Shiz]

If you are talking about the gnome skulk, he loses invisibility on his next turn, I though.

Pg 224 in PHB2 has something. The reference to pg 188 is for PHB1.


Targeting What You
Can’t See
The following paragraphs replace the second and
third paragraphs in the “Targeting What You Can’t
See” sidebar (Player’s Handbook, page 281)


Invisible Creatures and Stealth:
If an invisible creature
is hidden from you (“Stealth,” page 188), you can neither
hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies.
If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you
can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and
therefore know what space it occupies, although you still
can’t see it.
Make a Perception Check:

On your turn, you can
make a Perception check as a minor action (page 186)
to try to determine the location of an invisible creature
that is hidden from you.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Actually, it would be a fairly minor thing to have a flag on NPCs in the RPGT to toggle visibility. Added realism! You REALLY couldn't see them and would have to target squares and do perception checks.

[Greebo]

Fairly certain that making an attack while invisible does negate the being invisible bit.

That's what I can't find supporting evidence for.

[Greebo]

If you are talking about the gnome skulk, he loses invisibility on his next turn, I though.

Pg 224 in PHB2 has something. The reference to pg 188 is for PHB1.


[/LEFT]
Yeah, found that, and am talking about the skulk.

Thing is (group 5 stop reading now lol) if he attacks and misses, he keeps concealment - which *implies* that normally it would break the hide...but I can't find any evidence of that so far.

[Greebo]

Found it: PHB 188, Stealth. Success: If you later attack or shout you're no longer hidden.

So if I understand this...

Right now y'all can roll perception against his stealth to penetrate his invisibility.

If he attacks and misses, he stays hidden.

If he hits, he loses invis.

And his fade away power elapses EONT Gnome

[DinbinFanfoom]

How did you get the "attack+miss=stays hidden" part? Is that a special about his TYPE of invisibility?

[Greebo]

Gnome Skulk

Shadow Skulk
When a gnome skulk makes a melee or a ranged attack from hiding and misses, it is still considered to be hiding.

[Shiz]

To make a Perception roll, though, you have to have some idea of his vicinity. If you are invisible AND make a stealth check, then you should be completely safe.

[Greebo]

And that would be a stealth check against passive perception? And meanwhile the players could do active perception against his stealth?

Say, for example, that I roll his stealth at 25. Nobody has passive perception at 25, but if someone actively looked, then a 25 or better would mean that player sees him?

[Shiz]

No one is going to actively look for an invisible enemy unless there is some fore-knowledge that an invisible enemy is near. In that case, passive perception would be the rule. How does one adjust the DC for an invisible AND stealthed enemy? I don't know.

It is not that clear to me, but invisibility seems to be equivalent to total concealment.

[Greebo]

I'm talking about the specific situation where the gnome was visible, is now invisible, and wants to stay hidden. However, looking at this blurb:
Sometimes, you make a skill check as a test of your
skill in one area against another character’s skill in
the same area or in a different one. When you use
Stealth, for example, you’re testing your ability to hide
against someone else’s ability to spot hidden things
(the Perception skill). These skill contests are called
opposed checks. When you make an opposed check,
both characters roll, and the higher check result wins.
If there’s a tie, the character with the higher check
modifier wins. If it’s still a tie, both sides roll again to
break the tie.
It seems that to stay invis then it's an active skill check on both sides for him to stay concealed.

However, concealment requires something to hide behind, or low light...so i suppose that now that he's been spotted, keeping concealment once invis wears off is unlikely.

And since the party threw a sunrod in the room at the start, its unlikely that he'd have kept concealment anyway I suppose...

[Zyzzyx]

You could also look at the L6 Wizzie power for invisibility. IIRC, it mentions that you're fine until you attack, or are attacked (direct, or AE).

[EricStratton]

Little more info from PHB pg 281

Invisible Creature Uses Stealth: At the end of a con-
cealed creature?s turn, it makes a Stealth check opposed
by your passive Perception check. If you beat it, you know
there?s a creature present that you can?t see, and you know
the direction to its location. If you beat it by 10 or more,
you know exactly what square the creature ended its turn
in. The concealed creature also makes a Stealth check if it
takes an immediate action or an opportunity action.