Discussion: Under Bracken

[DinbinFanfoom]

Oh, and I finally hunted down some info on powers like reaping strike and "rolling 1".

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1043486&page=67

[Lycos]

Nice new battle data format Sagar. :D

[DinbinFanfoom]

Nice new battle data format Sagar. :D
Yeah, I like it. Is it a lot of work?

[EricStratton]

See this thread:

http://www.legendsofwestwood.org/forum/showthread.php?p=244598

[EricStratton]

Oh, and I finally hunted down some info on powers like reaping strike and "rolling 1".

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1043486&page=67
For those that don't want to look for it:

Originally Posted by Vorkuta
Q238: Do damage-on-miss powers like "Reaping Strike" do damage on critical misses? (roll of 1)
A 238: There is no such thing as a "critical miss".

In 4e, a natural '1' on an attack roll is an automatic miss per PH 276, but it's just like any other miss. For powers like Reaping Strike that cause damage on a miss, it doesn't matter whether the attack roll was a natural '1' or some other non-hitting number.

- Alane -

-----

Makes sense.

Also I do love the "ask a quick question, get a quick answer" threads. Tons of info in there and great for...well, asking a quick question.

[Sagar]

I am game either way.

I'll toss the question back to you.

Would you prefer a 1 = no attack and thus, you can keep that encounter or daily power to use again?

Or would you prefer 1 = miss, but miss damage applies ?

[DinbinFanfoom]

Naw, I wasn't really making an argument to change our house rules for this campaign, it's just been bugging me for a long time now... I always thought I might be interpreting the manual wrong or something. Leave it as it is, as it's the way we've been doing it. Most dailies are "reliable" so misses don't apply anyway.

[Zyzzyx]

Most dailies are "reliable" so misses don't apply anyway.
I'll have to look, but don't think there's many (if any?) caster powers that are reliable, even in the dailies. (OK, take that back, I think I've got some once I take a Paragon Path). So, I like the houserule of "1 = full miss and power not used"

[Shiz]

Focus targets guys.

[Zyzzyx]

I was figuring Ghoul and/or Skeletal Guardian first.

[Asharad]

Those chilled zombie guys seem to have some sort of automatic cold effect.

[Zyzzyx]

And if they're both affecting Brun, looks like a close burst 2 (5x5) area? Or maybe directed, within 2 squares?

[Shiz]

Kill the Chills. One is hurting already.

[Asharad]

Are we okay here? Are we waiting on something or is the boss just taking a break (which is fine, of course).

[DinbinFanfoom]

* the party tiptoes backwards out of the room and quietly closes the doors *

:D

[Shiz]

Are we okay here? Are we waiting on something or is the boss just taking a break (which is fine, of course).

Just a holiday weekend break, as far as I can tell. Sagar is posting in other advantures so he will get to us eventually.

[Lycos]

Just a holiday weekend break, as far as I can tell. Sagar is posting in other advantures so he will get to us eventually.

I figure this is the point where we figure out that we are all dead. :D

[Sagar]

Sorry. We had a big project we worked on in the house this weekend. And today at work, I had a meeting that went 9 - 5ish. Over the weekend, I posted when I had a few minutes here or there, but DM'ing takes alot more time in a shot.

[Shiz]

Baladir's healing uses the target's surge value but costs Baladir a surge, not the target.

[Asharad]

I'm going to wait and see what happens with brun and bal. If the cbz gets got I want to go after those ranged mobs.

[Greebo]

Cue the "wah wah wah" sounds...

[Shiz]

Yes. +1d8.

[Sagar]

Yes. +1d8.
+1d6 for crit bonus from a +1 implement.
He would get +1d8 if it was a high crit weapon.. AND the +1d6.

[Asharad]

I can't move from f5 to e6?

geniunely curious, I can never keep it straight if you can cut corners like that.

[Zyzzyx]

+1d6 for crit bonus from a +1 implement.
He would get +1d8 if it was a high crit weapon.. AND the +1d6.

Ah... I got the +1d8 from the stats of the 'Defensive Staff' I've got selected in the character creator. And I thought high-crit weapons were +1d12? Not arguing, I'm fine with +1d6, just trying to figger it all out...

[DinbinFanfoom]

I can't move from f5 to e6?
geniunely curious, I can never keep it straight if you can cut corners like that.
No, you can't. You can only move diagonally in open terrain, not around corners.

Eep. Fandango is in bad shape. :(

[Sagar]

Ah... I got the +1d8 from the stats of the 'Defensive Staff' I've got selected in the character creator. And I thought high-crit weapons were +1d12? Not arguing, I'm fine with +1d6, just trying to figger it all out...

It depends on the weapon.
So far, the only high crit weapons we've seen in use are axes which are 1d12. There are other high crit weapons that do different damage.

[Greebo]

Ah... I got the +1d8 from the stats of the 'Defensive Staff' I've got selected in the character creator. And I thought high-crit weapons were +1d12? Not arguing, I'm fine with +1d6, just trying to figger it all out...

I'm not sure if Sagar is house ruling crits but normally the natural 20 is an automatic hit and if your to-hit total beats the defensive value, you max all die rolls you would roll on a non-crit. Quarry, curse, weapon, whatever. THEN if you have a high crit weapon or some other bonus critical damage, THAT is rolled, and its a bonus of 1[w]. If your 20+bonus wouldn't normally hit when you roll a nat 20, you still hit, but don't get the max damage. It's all rather tricky at first...

[Sagar]

I'm not sure if Sagar is house ruling crits but normally the natural 20 is an automatic hit and if your to-hit total beats the defensive value, you max all die rolls you would roll on a non-crit. Quarry, curse, weapon, whatever. THEN if you have a high crit weapon or some other bonus critical damage, THAT is rolled, and its a bonus of 1[w]. If your 20+bonus wouldn't normally hit when you roll a nat 20, you still hit, but don't get the max damage. It's all rather tricky at first...

Normal crit rules apply.

[Greebo]

+1d6 for crit bonus from a +1 implement.
He would get +1d8 if it was a high crit weapon.. AND the +1d6.

Normal crit rules apply.

Oh *I* see! You said 1d8 cause the staff is 1d8. Duh.

[DinbinFanfoom]

For example, a crit on a normal strike from a +2 greataxe (d12) would be:

12 for the base damage
2 for the +2 weapon enhancement
1-12 (1d12) for the high-crit amount
2-12 (2d6) for the crits for each plus?

Is that how that works? So potential damage in this case for a +2 greataxe could be 12+2+12+12=38?

[Greebo]

For example, a crit on a normal strike from a +2 greataxe (d12) would be:

12 for the base damage
2 for the +2 weapon enhancement
1-12 (1d12) for the high-crit amount
2-12 (2d6) for the crits for each plus?

Is that how that works? So potential damage in this case for a +2 greataxe could be 12+2+12+12=38?

I don't know where you're getting the crits for each plus?
When you roll a natural 20 and your total attack roll
is high enough to hit your target?s defense, you score a
critical hit, also known as a crit.
CRITICAL HIT DAMAGE
✦ Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making
an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total
attack roll is high enough to hit your target?s defense.
If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you
still hit automatically.
✦ Precision: Some class features and powers allow
you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers
other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).
✦ Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage,
determine the maximum damage you can roll with
your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks
that don?t deal damage still don?t deal damage on a
critical hit.)
✦ Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as
well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage
you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra
damage is a die roll, it?s not automatically maximum
damage; you add the result of the roll

A greataxe is a high crit 1d12 so it's 12 + 2 + 1d12

[DinbinFanfoom]

I don't know where you're getting the crits for each plus?
Here:

All magic weapons and implements deal one
or more extra dice of damage on a critical hit. The
number of extra dice is equal to the item?s enhancement
bonus, and the die rolled depends on the
particular weapon or implement. (The normal critical
die is a d6.) Unless noted otherwise, the damage type
of this extra damage is the same as the normal damage
type for the weapon.
In addition to extra damage

So a +2 greataxe crit doing a Brute Strike (3w+str) by a +3 STR mod character COULD be:

36 (3d12 maxed)
+2 (weapon enh)
+3 (str bonus)
+12 (high crit weapon)
+12 (1d6 per weapon enh bonus number)
= 65 damage

IF all die rolls maxed on a crit. Min damage on a crit would be:
36 (3d12 maxed)
+2 (weapon enh)
+3 (str bonus)
+1 (high crit weapon rolls 1)
+2 (1d6 per weapon enh bonus each rolls 1)
= 44

[Sagar]

For example, a crit on a normal strike from a +2 greataxe (d12) would be:

12 for the base damage
2 for the +2 weapon enhancement
1-12 (1d12) for the high-crit amount
2-12 (2d6) for the crits for each plus?

Is that how that works? So potential damage in this case for a +2 greataxe could be 12+2+12+12=38?

That is correct.

Magical weapons do d6 crit damage for each +1.

[Greebo]

Ah, I see, yes I guess that's correct then - 3d12(maxed) + 2 + 3 + 1d12 + 2d6

[Asharad]

Thanks Trask!

[Shiz]

Baladir, shift and aid Fandango.

[Asharad]

Baladir, if you go to e7 we'll both have ca against the ghoul. Which is nice. I'll probably attack bs1 because I've got him under ca until the end of my turn, but still, it'd be nifty.

[Shiz]

Baladir cannot move to E7 without provoking an OA from the Guardian. He can shift to E6 this turn ad then shift again next turn. Or he can take the OA, but that mob gets 2 OAs as we saw with you.

[Asharad]

Good point.

feel free to kill that bastard. I can hang here okay for another round, I think.

Or shift and then move on your next turn. Either way is fine by me.

[EricStratton]

Right now the Guardian is the only thing us ranged ppl can hit w/o moving into the room. So feel free to get into a position to take out the two Blazing guys and we can concentrate on the guardian.

[EricStratton]

Yeesh, I'd forgotten about the 1d6 per +1 for magic weapons. Group 4 ppl, make sure to remind me of that when the time comes.

[Shiz]

Good point.

[Shiz]

Group 4 doesn't have any magic weapons yet. Well, Rend does kind of with his totem but I wouldn't forget. Rend hasn't had a crit yet.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Magic Greataxes FTW.

[Greebo]

Oh great and mighty DM of group 4, please bestow upon us magic weapons, so that we may strike many critical hits in your name and do mucho hella awesome damage!

[Shiz]

Trask's +2 went poof with the Chillborn.

[EricStratton]

<booming voice> It Shall Be Thought Upon!</booming voice>

[DinbinFanfoom]

Trask's +2 went poof with the Chillborn.
OK, so I've still got 9+11=20 then. I hope it's enough. If so, it should position Baladir nicely.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Oh well... still, you got off fairly easy. DM Note: Brun surged too. Not sure if you caught that.

[Lycos]

Oh well... still, you got off fairly easy.


Yeah, I agree. I'm going to E7 then for sure with that payment. :D

[Sagar]

Yeah, I agree. I'm going to E7 then for sure with that payment. :D

As far as I can tell, you get to move as part of her ability.

[Asharad]

Lycos, next round if you hold your action until I go, I will use sneak in the attack on the ghoul, which gives you +2d8 damage.

[Sagar]

Oh well... still, you got off fairly easy. DM Note: Brun surged too. Not sure if you caught that.


Missed it.. fixed now.

[DinbinFanfoom]

OOC: Please move up a bit, brainy types. You can't see nothin' down there. Door is... somewhat more clear. Bal gonna need some healin'.

Oh, if it's not too late, I mark SG again with my last attack. I keep forgetting to add that... we should probably assume I always do it unless I explicitly say I don't, as there is very little reason NOT to.

Re: Covering Strike: Yep, it's a free shift of 2. This is the first time I've actually had it connect when I wanted to, if barely. :)

[Sagar]

Lycos, next round if you hold your action until I go, I will use sneak in the attack on the ghoul, which gives you +2d8 damage.

He goes after you normally. He can attack, then you attack next round and he follows you.

[Asharad]

Wait, he does?

I'm looking at the chart in the thread that lists all of our stats and whatnot...it's not in initiative order?

edit: I see that it isn't. That's confusing.

[DinbinFanfoom]

In reference to Asharad's query in the other thread... how difficult would it be to combine the "status" (Excel formatted) table and the initiative one? That is, the monsters would show in the table as well, and everything would stay ordered by initiative. You'd have to sort the table once per encounter, I guess. Is that hard? If so, no biggie, keep it as it is... though it might be easier for you, actually... I think it's what Greebs is doing.

[Zyzzyx]

IIRC, Sagar wants to be using the other format, and will be once he gets Excel on his home system.

[DinbinFanfoom]

IIRC, Sagar wants to be using the other format, and will be once he gets Excel on his home system.
Ah, OK. Missed that. Disregard.

[DinbinFanfoom]

The skeletal guardian lashes at Brunhilde with all 4 scimitars (22,14,20,20 vs AC 20) hitting her 3 times (21 damage - 7 temp, 14 regular, 0 hp left and still burning). Brunhilde falls unconcious to the floor as flames continue to burn her.
Just a question about this... does that represent 35 damage? Or 21? Or 14? Cuz Brun had 29+7hp before that attack...

Round 1
Start: 62
Damage: 10 from double cold auras
Damage: 6 melee from Ghoul
Damage: 10 from orbs from Blazing Skeletons
End: 36

Round 2
Start: 36
Damage: 10 from double cold auras
Damage: 5 from fire DoT
Heal: 22 from Trask
Heal: 15 from Baladir
Damage: 10 from BS2
Damage: 7 from CBZ
End: 41

Round 3
Start: 41
Damage: 5 from cold aura
Damage: 5 from cold DoT
Damage: 5 from fire DoT
Damage: 7 from SG
End: 19 (this jibes with your chart)

Round 4
Start: 19
Damage: 5 from fire DoT (Now at 14hp)
Heal: 15 from Second wind (Now at 29hp)
Temp HP: 7 from Baladir (Now at 29hp + 7 temp)
Damage: 21 from SG? 14 from SG? 21+14 from SG?
End: No idea. :D Either 29+7-21=15, 29+7-14=22 or 29+7-21-14=1?

[Lycos]

Who said that you can have a group without a cleric?!?!?!

[Greebo]

Open Office should support the new format I did recently in .xls, IIRC.

[Sagar]

Just a question about this... does that represent 35 damage? Or 21? Or 14? Cuz Brun had 29+7hp before that attack...

Round 1
Start: 62
Damage: 10 from double cold auras
Damage: 6 melee from Ghoul
Damage: 10 from orbs from Blazing Skeletons
End: 36

Round 2
Start: 36
Damage: 10 from double cold auras
Damage: 5 from fire DoT
Heal: 22 from Trask
Heal: 15 from Baladir
Damage: 10 from BS2
Damage: 7 from CBZ
End: 41

Round 3
Start: 41
Damage: 5 from cold aura
Damage: 5 from cold DoT
Damage: 5 from fire DoT
Damage: 7 from SG
End: 19 (this jibes with your chart)

Round 4
Start: 19
Damage: 5 from fire DoT (Now at 14hp)
Heal: 15 from Second wind (Now at 29hp)
Temp HP: 7 from Baladir (Now at 29hp + 7 temp)
Damage: 21 from SG? 14 from SG? 21+14 from SG?
End: No idea. :D Either 29+7-21=15, 29+7-14=22 or 29+7-21-14=1?

I forgot to save my chart when I added the 15 healing so it showed you with 14 hp + 7 temp hp when you got hit for 21.

In reality, you have 15 hp and are still standing.

[DinbinFanfoom]

I forgot to save my chart when I added the 15 healing so it showed you with 14 hp + 7 temp hp when you got hit for 21.
In reality, you have 15 hp and are still standing.
Whew! Thanks, Sagar! Don't wanna seem like a whiner, honest!

[Sagar]

Whew! Thanks, Sagar! Don't wanna seem like a whiner, honest!
As I sat in my last meeting, it occurred to me that you used SW and had +2 to defenses which means that 2 of those attacks didn't actually hit you. You're in much better shape than I thought.

[DinbinFanfoom]

No sweat. Ever since the first encounter where Brun got stomped in 2 rounds, she's been paranoid about watching her HP. :P

It's kind of important for all of us, actually... don't wait for 10hp to try a heal, cuz something may hit you before you get a chance to (AoO, interrupt). Nothing wrong with healing at 40-50%.

We've done an OK job of conserving our dailies too, I think. This is one tough "just starting the dungeon" fight, that's for sure! :D Kudos to Sagar for making it heart-pounding.

[Shiz]

Now that we are at level 5 and have 2 dailies, we can be a bit more loose with them. I also agree with you - having learned the hard way - that it is best to not wait for one of you to get bloodied before I heal. The mobs we are fighting now can do 1 surge worth of damage in one hit easily.

At level 6, I get another healing power: an encounter power for one surge or a daily power to heal 2 surges worth. Or a light spell. Umm, no. I expect to take the encounter one.

[DinbinFanfoom]

The mobs we are fighting now can do 1 surge worth of damage in one hit easily.QFT. We were VERY lucky that guardian never hit with more than two weapons at a time, he could have easily dished out 30+ damage in a round, which is half the hp of our tanks, nevermind the casters.
At level 6, I get another healing power: an encounter power for one surge or a daily power to heal 2 surges worth. Or a light spell. Umm, no. I expect to take the encounter one.*nods* We're gonna need more and more heals, I'm thinking. Brun can do a BIT of self-healing, but most of hers are dailies (armour/comeback), so she'll rely on others more as we start doing more multi-encounter adventures (like the current one seems to be). I agonized about using the armour daily in this fight, but since we were up against 5 pretty-tough, non-minions and her HP was getting low, I went for it.

Remember, we still have healing pots too, though Brun is trying to save hers.

[Sagar]

He had 4 high crit weapons. He could have done HUGE damage in 1 round with lucky rolls. Which he did not get... the loser.

There were some issues with the zombies too. Basically, I had to cut them back a bit. They were overpowered IMHO. They did 5 cold in an aura. The aura's stack. They add 5 cold ongoing, and they do 5 extra cold if you are immobilized. That would be 20 automatic damage per round .. and that just seemed extreme.

Also, the guardian had the 4 attack power as an "at will". That also seemed overkill so I only used it every other attack.

[Shiz]

I don't think they are overpowered as written, but when you put them in a 5X4 room where we are stacked at the entrance they become fearsome. If they were spread out over a 10X10 area, it wouldn't have been so bad.

Add to that fact thet Brun's AC is a bit low for level 5 (a level 1 swordmage in Group 4 has higher AC than both our tanks) and the guardian could have been really mean.

[Greebo]

A sheepish looking eraser descends from the stone above and gently rubs out one of Baladirs wounds.
A pair of hands - looking like Redd on steriods - lift the paladin, dust him off a bit, and vanish.

You hear voices above arguing, "Who are you calling an idjot, what?! They were TEMPORARY hit points. ANYONE could have missed them! You just wait 'till it's YOUR turn to track them and see how well YOU do...."

Baladir stands, bowed and bloodied, but saved by the 7 temporary hit points.

I'm really getting to hate temp hps too...

[Sagar]

I'm really getting to hate temp hps too...

I used to just add them to HP and not worry about them. I may go back to that.

[Greebo]

Problem with that is how they don't stack, unless you're a BR fighter and then they stack with other types of THPs

[Lycos]

Wis vs. Will attack. What is used to come up with the to hit bonus? My Wis mod is 2. My Wis level mod would be +4, right? Does anything else go into that?

[Greebo]

Attack rolls get the level modifier, damage rolls do not.

[Shiz]

Wis vs. Will attack. What is used to come up with the to hit bonus? My Wis mod is 2. My Wis level mod would be +4, right? Does anything else go into that?

You also forgot your +2 implement so +6. I edited your attack post. You missed, though, probably.

[DinbinFanfoom]

You mean wis mod (+2) plus level mod (+2) = total mod (+4)?

Greebo: he's talking "to hit" so I assume he means "atk", not "dam".

[Lycos]

You also forgot your +2 implement so +6. I edited your attack post. You missed, though, probably.

Thanks.

[Lycos]

You mean wis mod (+2) plus level mod (+2) = total mod (+4)?

Greebo: he's talking "to hit" so I assume he means "atk", not "dam".

Right and right.

[Greebo]

You mean wis mod (+2) plus level mod (+2) = total mod (+4)?

Greebo: he's talking "to hit" so I assume he means "atk", not "dam".
Yes, I got that. I figured I'd cover both bases.