Through the Secret Door Discussion

[EricStratton]

Brun (or Baladir) could kick open the door to get a jump on whatever's back there. If the "it" is not hostile all we did was give someone a mini heart attack and that's what Trask is here for.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Brun (or Baladir) could kick open the door to get a jump on whatever's back there. If the "it" is not hostile all we did was give someone a mini heart attack and that's what Trask is here for.
Brun would be game, but I would prefer if a stealthy type would take a quick peek through the door (if possible) and appraise us before we leap. I remember making a dex roll on that last door, to avoid falling in. :P

[Shiz]

Fandango should open it and move to the side with Baladir in front, shield up. The rest of us should be back a few squares so we can maneuver/fall back if needed.

[Lycos]

Fandango should open it and move to the side with Baladir in front, shield up. The rest of us should be back a few squares so we can maneuver/fall back if needed.

Sounds good to me.

[EricStratton]

Since it opens in, yeah, that works.

[Sagar]

Baladir and Fandango: Give me stealth rolls.

Fandango: Give me a Thievery roll.

Baladir and Fandango try to move quietly to the door. The rest of the party backs away a bit.

Fandango, using his thievery skills, tries to open the door silently so he doesn't alert those within.

[Asharad]

okay! Before I open the door, let's cover our lightsource so its dark and Baladir and I aren't backlit.

[Lycos]

Ok. Stealth +3


Woooo, not bad for the guy in the tin suit. :D

[Sagar]

Baladir moves with unnatural silence for a guy in a tin suit and carrying a gong.
Fandango most with natural silence for a guy who does this sort of stuff for a living.

With the utmost quiet, Fandango EASES the door open a crack and peers inside. He sees rats. And a 20'x20 room carved from the rock, but mostly, he sees rats. There is one Dire Rat apparent and a ginormous swarm of smaller rats in the room. Neither the dire rat nor the swarm notice the cracked door. The room is only dimly lit.

[Shiz]

Wrong thread...

[Greebo]

Someone pick Fandango's arm up from the ground...

[DinbinFanfoom]

High init people, do not block the door. You will go down hard up front alone.
Possible strategies:

Draw back - Pro: this might get a few of the mobs through the bottleneck that is the door Massive Con: The mob(s) in the doorway are ranged, and don't need to follow... maybe we flatten against the E wall so he has to come out? He could probably still see some of us from the doorway...

Block the Door - Pro: they can't get through, Con: neither can we Sagar: Can melee's on both of those squares adjacent (n/s and diagonally) from outside the door hit an NPC on the other side? I assume that "doorway" is actually thinner, and not a square we can stand in...

Bull Rush - Pro: Might push them back into the room and let our melee's get in. It also means the rogue NPC will have to switch to melee Con: We don't know &#*@ about what's in that room, really.

Brun favours rushing (when doesn't she?) but I know that doesn't always work. We can't let them range-fight us, though. We need some room to maneuver here... However we could always withdraw down the hallway, even around the corner... and see what follows.

Discuss.

[Asharad]

If brun and I switch places seems like only one bad guy can get through the door at a time.

I mean, thats how it stands now, but I'm leaking blood everywhere.

[DinbinFanfoom]

If brun and I switch places seems like only one bad guy can get through the door at a time.
I mean, thats how it stands now, but I'm leaking blood everywhere.Getting in front of you won't be a problem, the problem is that the mobs don't HAVE to close to melee range. They critted you with ranged powers. They have zero motivation to come out to us.

[Shiz]

We will win the ranged fight all day long. We have 4 capable ranged attackers. They have 1. Bull rush won't help. You BR to Q5, then you get boxed in on 3 sides and die.

[Sagar]

Getting in front of you won't be a problem, the problem is that the mobs don't HAVE to close to melee range. They critted you with ranged powers. They have zero motivation to come out to us.

You don't really know what he did. It's still dark.

The door is only door width not 5' wide. But it is smaller. Only the person directly in front of is has a reasonable chance of hitting through it.

[Shiz]

Setup Strike is a melee attack, but I am metagaming...

[DinbinFanfoom]

You don't really know what he did. It's still dark.
True enough, I missed the "Fandango is shoved back" bit. He WAS in melee range.

Still, a rogue uses range as effectively as melee, so we shouldn't assume he'll just waltz out into our waiting arms.

[Shiz]

But he will die standiung there: Trask, Solak, Amaril and Fan can all tee off on him.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Fine and dandy. So we give him room to come out if he wants to and just range him from where we are? (Sagar: I assume only Baladir does not have LoS?)

[Zyzzyx]

General question regarding AE burst attacks. I remember reading that there needs to be LOS from the origin of the burst to the target (not so critical now with my 3x3 size, but perhaps later with 5x5 or more). But do you need LOS from character to the origin square? Could I, from where I'm at, toss Scorching burst centered at S2?

[DinbinFanfoom]

I think the caster does need line of sight to the burst center, yes. So no, you couldn't do that.

[Greebo]

Din is correct. You need LoE (line of effect) to the target square, and the target square then needs LoE to any targets w/in the burst.

[Asharad]

Setup Strike is a melee attack, but I am metagaming...


That's okay, I (fandango) know setup strike is melee.

Also...massive amounts of damage is more fun when you are the damager and not the damagee.

[Zyzzyx]

That's okay, I (fandango) know setup strike is melee.

Even if Fandango doesn't recognize it as a Setup Strike, I would expect that he, or most anyone, would likely be able to tell if they were hit by a melee or ranged attack.

[Zyzzyx]

Din is correct. You need LoE (line of effect) to the target square, and the target square then needs LoE to any targets w/in the burst.

Gotchya.

Also found my PHB pdf file (new work system over the weekend, still settling in). Reference 'Area Attack' sidebar on PHB p271.

[Sagar]

Round 1:

InitCombatantDmgTHPA/PSurgesHealsEffectsDailies Used24Brunhilde58/620100-21Rat Swarm0????-?19wererat0????-?15Wererogue0????-?15Baladir57/570000-15Fandango48/480000-14Trask41/450102-9Amaril48/480100-9Solak41/410100-

The door is open (perpendicular to the wall). Baladir is behind the door. It very dark in the hall. There is a dark figure in the doorway.

[Zyzzyx]

Pssst... Not that I want to hinder us, but hasn't Fandango taken some serious damage already? And should we have some positive numbers in the Surges column? (assuming its counting how many are left)

[Zyzzyx]

Hmm... whether to burn a daily or not... contemplating moving over and firing off Stinking Cloud in the room. Could be some guaranteed damage, but might force them outta the room into us. Thoughts?

[EricStratton]

I wouldn't. We've still got a vampire to fight. But I think it's safe to use an AP since we *should* get one after this fight.

[Sagar]

Pssst... Not that I want to hinder us, but hasn't Fandango taken some serious damage already? And should we have some positive numbers in the Surges column? (assuming its counting how many are left)
I was experimenting with it. I didn't get to fully fill it out.

[Zyzzyx]

Hmm... Just looking at my selection of dailies, the ones I really like have a Sustain option that would be used, so unlikely to see them both in the same fight (Bigbys/Stink). But... how about this for a combo if the opportunity is right. Fire off Sleep, then a round or two later fire off Stink Cloud. Some nice semi-ongoing damage if a few folks are unconscious. :twisted:

I am looking forward to using Bigby's though.

[Shiz]

Undead are probably resistant to poison which is what Stinking Cloud is. That doesn't mean the vampire won't have non-undead help.

[Zyzzyx]

/em backs off... "sorry.. sorry... didn't mean to jump on ya..."

I do like the table layout, hope it makes things easier for everyone.

[Zyzzyx]

Hmm... that could be a Nature/Religion check when the time comes? Ya know, to keep it 'proper', instead of me looking up char info for undead.

[EricStratton]

Z, you hum a lot.

But that does remind me. Someone should make a nature and/or religion check on the were-creatures we're fighting now.

[Zyzzyx]

I do... that I do. In RL too.

Nature +10 for Solak, can give that a shot. Once I can see what I'm trying to look at.

[Shiz]

You know dire rats cause disease with their bites.
Swarms did appear to be vulnerable to AoEs. This swarm, however, is SIGNIFICANTLY bigger than the others you've see - both in rat size and in rat quantity.

Someone asked for a check. I t was doine.

[Sagar]

And I don't remember using an AP last battle. I know I thought about it, but once it got to be my turn, it seemed to be over kill.

I saw it when I paged through the posts. If you can show that it wasn't actually used, I'll take it back off.
You all do get an AP if you survive this fight.

[Shiz]

Trask used his Daily last fight.

[EricStratton]

Seems like we need some light. Amaril can use his sun rod or we can have Solak throw a lit coin in to the room. Or something.

[Shiz]

Boy we blew this one...hehe. AEs just became useless. The were-rogue is going to open the door and attack us at his leisure.

[Sagar]

Seems like we need some light. Amaril can use his sun rod or we can have Solak throw a lit coin in to the room. Or something.

Someone had a light (I think I assumed Amaril). The party covered it to be sneaky.
It can be uncovered as a minor action.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Boy we blew this one...hehe. AEs just became useless. The were-rogue is going to open the door and attack us at his leisure.
Depends. Can Baladir shift left and obstruct the door? (IE: close it) Since he's behind it, that looks easy.

Also, we can still AE. Just target through the door. AE blasts don't travel AROUND corners (IE: there is no LoE from the center of the AE to Baladir through the door), so I think Bal is covered, though the DM will have to rule on that.

[Zyzzyx]

I'll light things up, though I'm last in the init order.

Got something different I've been wanting to try with my Light cantrip.

[Shiz]

Can the casters back up a bit? Trask wants to be able to shift out of melee.

[DinbinFanfoom]

What kind of concealment (if any) do Wererat and the swarm have? (adjacent to Baladir/Brunhilde/Trask/standing-on-Fandango)

[EricStratton]

Depends. Can Baladir shift left and obstruct the door? (IE: close it) Since he's behind it, that looks easy.

Also, we can still AE. Just target through the door. AE blasts don't travel AROUND corners (IE: there is no LoE from the center of the AE to Baladir through the door), so I think Bal is covered, though the DM will have to rule on that.
Since the door opens inward standing in front of it should work. I imagine it'll be STR vs STR.

As for AoE he means for the swarm. We can't AoE them when they are in the middle of the group. :(

[DinbinFanfoom]

Since the door opens inward standing in front of it should work. I imagine it'll be STR vs STR.That's what I'm thinking. If we jam the area, the rogue shouldn't (caveat emptor) be able to push Bal too much, as he's hemmed in anyway... (I think there are rules about bull-rushing a mob/PC that has no square to move to, but I haven't looked it up).
As for AoE he means for the swarm. We can't AoE them when they are in the middle of the group. :(Ah yes. You are right.

[Sagar]

What kind of concealment (if any) do Wererat and the swarm have? (adjacent to Baladir/Brunhilde/Trask/standing-on-Fandango)
Just that it's dark and you can't see in the dark. This gives them total concealment.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Just that it's dark and you can't see in the dark. This gives them total concealment.How did we see into the room? :D

[Sagar]

The room is dimly lit - you couldn't see the source. Very little useful light comes through the small door, though.

[Zyzzyx]

Since the door opens inward standing in front of it should work. I imagine it'll be STR vs STR.

As for AoE he means for the swarm. We can't AoE them when they are in the middle of the group. :(

Well, not without hitting allies. :twisted:

And we really should work on keeping discussion and adventure threads separate. Discussion of the same stuff in two places is getting confusing.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Question: What's the bonus for AE vs swarm again? I couldn't find it in the PHB.
And we really should work on keeping discussion and adventure threads separate. Discussion of the same stuff in two places is getting confusing.I've just moved some.

[Shiz]

Swarms are vulnerable 5 vs blast and burst AEs.

[Sagar]

You know, this was supposed to be an easyish encounter. I guess the rats didn't read my outline. And their dice are wicked.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Baladir, standing near the swarm, is attacked by swarming rats. These (natural 20) get all in his armor and chew on him unmercifully (10 damage, 4 ongoing SE)Did any of our nature/arcana checks reveal how often these guys can attack, or what can trigger them? (A shift nearby, apparently...?)

[Shiz]

Our check wasn;t high enough but I am guessing proximity invites an attack.

[Sagar]

You've never seen a swarm like this before.

[DinbinFanfoom]

It's like an 18-wheeler of stairs of rat-swarms?

[Zyzzyx]

So what would be a best skill to check on the swarm? (and/or wererats?)

Nature, Religion, History, maybe Dungeoneering?

First thought is Nature, but I could see perhaps Dungeoneering as a knowledge of likely underground critters?

[DinbinFanfoom]

Sagar might tell you which is most appropriate, but I think knowledge checks are free actions... I could be wrong.

[Shiz]

He just said "You have ever seen a swarm like this before." That means a knowledge check isn't going to help much. At least it does to me. That said, I did a Nature check on both, but they were sub-20.

[Sagar]

Oh... speaking of which. Now that you have light - you are almost sure the rat you are fighting is a lycanthrope.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Oh... speaking of which. Now that you have light - you are almost sure the rat you are fighting is a lycanthrope.Max: "I'm not a misanthrope... I'm a lagomorph!"

Actually, we don't have light until Amaril's turn, do we?

[EricStratton]

Did any of our nature/arcana checks reveal how often these guys can attack, or what can trigger them? (A shift nearby, apparently...?)
I'm doing my best not to mega-game but I'm thinking starting your turn next to the swarm will trigger an attack.

So what would be a best skill to check on the swarm? (and/or wererats?)

Nature, Religion, History, maybe Dungeoneering?

First thought is Nature, but I could see perhaps Dungeoneering as a knowledge of likely underground critters?
If they are normal rats, Nature. If they are undead rats, Religion and Nature.

He just said "You have ever seen a swarm like this before." That means a knowledge check isn't going to help much. At least it does to me. That said, I did a Nature check on both, but they were sub-20.
Knowledge check should help if we can beat the DC. "You've never seen a swarm like this before" just means, to me, we have no prior knowledge and we must figure it out (via knowledge check rolls).

Oh... speaking of which. Now that you have light - you are almost sure the rat you are fighting is a lycanthrope.
That just means "wererat" right?

[Asharad]

Can I get up (move action) and then instead of attacking use a move action? Or am I stuck in place because of the swarm?

[Asharad]

I meant to suggest that instead of deferring her turn, Brun stepped up and blocked the door, but forgot to post it this morning before I left.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Can I get up (move action) and then instead of attacking use a move action? Or am I stuck in place because of the swarm?I THINK you can get up TO the square NE of you (the one Baladir vacated), as yours is now occupied. Again, DM rules on it.
Actually, I think I read somewhere that a PC and a swarm can occupy the same square...

[Zyzzyx]

I THINK you can get up TO the square NE of you (the one Baladir vacated), as yours is now occupied. Again, DM rules on it.
Actually, I think I read somewhere that a PC and a swarm can occupy the same square...

From the looks of it, a PC and a swarm can even occupy the same armor.

[Asharad]

Also, does this count as me being "grabbed" by the swarm? I'm trying to figure out the mechanics.

Do I stand (move action), make an acrobatics check and shift as a second move action?

Or do I stand (move action) and then...I dunno? Make a save? If I save we are still in the same square, right?

[Sagar]

When you stand, you can shift one square as part of the action. You are not held, they are big rats, but not ROUS's. Unfortunately, you can't move through an enemy square (that is a special ability the rat swarm has). You can attack or use second wind or just go defensive (+2 to defenses). You can also pause and go after Trask. Play possum until you are healed, as it were.

[Zyzzyx]

Ah, deferring to be later in the init order. I forget about that. Could be a wise decision.

[Asharad]

Fandango (already took damage and the aura attack) shifts as he stands back up. He turns and stabs the rat with feeling (but not with CA).


How come? It's flanked.

[Sagar]

How come? It's flanked.
Because you aren't flanking it. Someone would have to be at P9 for you to be flanking.

Who is your flanking buddy?

[Asharad]

Because you aren't flanking it. Someone would have to be at P9 for you to be flanking.

Who is your flanking buddy?

I attacked the swarm. Brun is my flanking buddy.

I sneak in the attack the werat and then attacked the swarm. I've got ca on the swarm, which is where my attack went. Brun has it too.

[DinbinFanfoom]

I attacked the swarm. Brun is my flanking buddy.You are right, of course. I must have misread your post. Thought you were double-attacking the were-rat. (THERE-RAT!) Yeah, we have it flanked this turn so... uhm... stay on your feet. :D

[Asharad]

I'm feeling much better now, thanks!

[Greebo]

Smitted???

[Lycos]

Smitted???

Smotten? Smitten??? :mrgreen:

Smitten sounds like a lovers challenge. ;)

[DinbinFanfoom]

What do you expect for 11 intelligence?

[Greebo]

Smotten? Smitten??? :mrgreen:

Smitten: He was smitten by the paladin's holy power. The paladin smote the evil doer.

[Asharad]

Couple of things:

I guess that the spell casters will want to focus on the swarm, as they seem to shrug off melee pretty well.

On saving throws:

This format makes remembering to do saving throws kind of difficult. We need a mechanic to draw attention to the fact that a saving throw needs to be made.

In a face to face game at the end of my turn the DM would say "I need a saving throw for (whatever)."

Here, it may be mentioned in a post that was made two day before and in an off hand comment. It might be easier for the DMs if they made all saving throw issues...I dunno...green type or something. That way the players might remember them better.

[Lycos]

On saving throws:

This format makes remembering to do saving throws kind of difficult. We need a mechanic to draw attention to the fact that a saving throw needs to be made.

In a face to face game at the end of my turn the DM would say "I need a saving throw for (whatever)."

Here, it may be mentioned in a post that was made two day before and in an off hand comment. It might be easier for the DMs if they made all saving throw issues...I dunno...green type or something. That way the players might remember them better.

I agree. I'm ok with the DMs just rolling for us if we forget to keep the action moving.

[Greebo]

On saving throws:

This format makes remembering to do saving throws kind of difficult. We need a mechanic to draw attention to the fact that a saving throw needs to be made.

In a face to face game at the end of my turn the DM would say "I need a saving throw for (whatever)."
15 Fandango 32/48 0 0 0 0 4 Ongoing damage, SE



SE = Save Ends

[Lycos]

Smitten: He was smitten by the paladin's holy power. The paladin smote the evil doer.

For crying out loud Jim, I'm a paladin, not an english teacher. LOL :mrgreen:

[Greebo]

For crying out loud Jim, I'm a paladin, not an english teacher. LOL :mrgreen:

No, but I'm the son of one (well he was one, for a while, anyway). Just for that, your homework is 10 pages of written conjugations of verbs beginning with the letter S.

[Asharad]

I agree. I'm ok with the DMs just rolling for us if we forget to keep the action moving.


yeah, me too. But anything they can do to minimize the work would be helpful, I'd think.

[EricStratton]

Couple of things:

I guess that the spell casters will want to focus on the swarm, as they seem to shrug off melee pretty well.
They're a swarm. I assume they behave like other swarms and shrug off any non-AE attack pretty well (i.e., 1/2 dmg).

[Lycos]

And as a perfect example, sometimes I don't have the time to wait for the table to come out. I write up my next actions, and come back 2 hours later to being given a hard time because I forgot to roll a saving throw. I think a little flexibility would be useful in this case. I agree with Asharad on this.

[EricStratton]

And as a perfect example, sometimes I don't have the time to wait for the table to come out. I write up my next actions, and come back 2 hours later to being given a hard time because I forgot to roll a saving throw. I think a little flexibility would be useful in this case. I agree with Asharad on this.
Here, I'll help - before your Round 2 turn you got hit w/ ongoing dmg. So roll a saving throw now.

[Asharad]

They're a swarm. I assume they behave like other swarms and shrug off any non-AE attack pretty well (i.e., 1/2 dmg).


Okay, well is there an attack that does work well for them? Does anything work particularly well with a swarm. I don't remember what worked the last time we fought them.

And as a perfect example, sometimes I don't have the time to wait for the table to come out. I write up my next actions, and come back 2 hours later to being given a hard time because I forgot to roll a saving throw. I think a little flexibility would be useful in this case. I agree with Asharad on this.

Yeah we are all in a rush at times and in this format, with the wall of text, it's pretty easy to miss things. for example, on my last attack, I made it clear which target I was attacking, but two different people just scanned my post and got it wrong. It's an understandable problem, given the way we are playing.

Saving throws can get tricky because we are playing in a written format and often posting out of order (it's gotta be madness for the DMs).

Our last fight in Greebo's adventure had a mechanic which didn't work particularly well at all because we aren't all sitting in the same room. You have to save when you moved on a square for immobilize and then also one of the mobs had an immobilize as their attack.

people just ended up rolling a bunch of ****ing numbers because it got really confusing (because of the format) as to when you needed to save. It wasn't Greebo's fault, we just weren't all sitting around a table and so we couldn't say "I move here" and he said 'Okay you need a saving throw for this, this and this."

I will say that the new table does help in this a good deal.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Okay, well is there an attack that does work well for them? Does anything work particularly well with a swarm. I don't remember what worked the last time we fought them.Blasts. Bursts. Brun used one, even though it was weapon based. Don't you have a "dagger shotgun" thing? These do +5 damage or somesuch, to swarms because of the multi-hit. Mind you... is yours ranged? (triggering an AoO)?
Yeah we are all in a rush at times and in this format, with the wall of text, it's pretty easy to miss things. for example, on my last attack, I made it clear which target I was attacking, but two different people just scanned my post and got it wrong. It's an understandable problem, given the way we are playing.I think the best we can hope for is for the players to be as diligent as they can, but if they miss a ST, the DM will have to roll it for them to resolve their turn. That's about as easy as it can be made, I think.

PS: Sorry if I ever appeared to jump on you Lycos. I hope I jump on all of you equally. :D

[Greebo]

And as a perfect example, sometimes I don't have the time to wait for the table to come out. I write up my next actions, and come back 2 hours later to being given a hard time because I forgot to roll a saving throw. I think a little flexibility would be useful in this case. I agree with Asharad on this.

Baladir was attacked by the swarm after you posted your move anyway and thats when he got hit with the rats ongoing damage. I don't think Sagar was giving you a hard time, I think he was just saying, 'Oh, you're taking ongoing damage and I forgot to ask you for a ST'.

Ash, however, doesn't get a pass - the information has been put out there very clearly by Sagar that you are taking ongoing damage.

Speaking as a DM, if you were at the table top, I would be telling you, "You take ongoing damage from the rats". If you failed to remember to roll a saving throw when you're already what, nearly level 6? That would be your problem, not mine.

The DM in these games has to track every single piece of data about the dungeon *and* about your characters. He also has to understand your abilities and verify their correct operation.

Players only have to track your own information and use your powers correctly.

I don't think it's at all out of line for the DM to put a little expectation on the players of his game to remember to do everything they have an opportunity to do on their turn.

[Asharad]

Blasts. Bursts. Brun used one, even though it was weapon based. Don't you have a "dagger shotgun" thing? These do +5 damage or somesuch, to swarms because of the multi-hit. Mind you... is yours ranged? (triggering an AoO)?

I do, but it's a burst three and I'm afraid it will blind everyone else in the hall.

[Sagar]

This swarm is tough because they get an aura attack against anyone in range at the start of that person's turn. If they hit, they do ongoing damage which can be saved against at the end of the turn.

I try to put the ST request in Italics with the intent to resolve it by the end of the round. I figure you at least want a chance to roll your own ST. I suppose I can put the request in something more visible:

Yo', dude, Saving Throw Required!

[DinbinFanfoom]

Speaking as a DM, if you were at the table top, I would be telling you, "You take ongoing damage from the rats". If you failed to remember to roll a saving throw when you're already what, nearly level 6? That would be your problem, not mine.I do have to respect that, somewhat. As long as it's clear in the text that we need to make one. It'd "learn" us, that's for sure! :D

[DinbinFanfoom]

I do, but it's a burst three and I'm afraid it will blind everyone else in the hall.Check the "target"... is it "everyone" or just "enemies"?

[Zyzzyx]

I do, but it's a burst three and I'm afraid it will blind everyone else in the hall.
Blinding Barrag, right?

Target: Each enemy in blast you can see

Won't affect your allies.

[Asharad]

This swarm is tough because they get an aura attack against anyone in range at the start of that person's turn. If they hit, they do ongoing damage which can be saved against at the end of the turn.

I try to put the ST request in Italics with the intent to resolve it by the end of the round. I figure you at least want a chance to roll your own ST. I suppose I can put the request in something more visible:

Yo', dude, Saving Throw Required!

This particular time you posted it and I just missed it.

But saving throws do seem to be a problem in general. Again, its a problem of the format we are playing in. The time between when I read the post where the mob attacked me and when it is my turn to go can be a day or longer. Granted, it's not like the posts disappear.

Check the "target"... is it "everyone" or just "enemies"?

You, ma'am, are a credit to your race.

I probably can't blind a swarm, but at least I might be able to annoy it.

[EricStratton]

Ooooh, do that one, Ash!

[DinbinFanfoom]

I probably can't blind a swarm, but at least I might be able to annoy it.Only problem I see is that it's a daily, and you might wanna save it, but that's up to you.

The damage would be decent, though... 2w+dex and +5 for it being a swarm. And do you get a damage bonus because you have CA due to flank? Is that how rogues work? The blind would not effect it, though, as you'd likely blind a few individual rats, but not the swarm itself.

[EricStratton]

Oh, it's a daily? Damn. I probably wouldn't use it then.

[Asharad]

Speaking as a DM, if you were at the table top, I would be telling you, "You take ongoing damage from the rats". If you failed to remember to roll a saving throw when you're already what, nearly level 6? That would be your problem, not mine.

Really? If the rats attacked baladir first thing in a round and three monster attacks and two other players later, Baladir's turn came up, you wouldn't say "saving throw?"

[Asharad]

Oh, it's a daily? Damn. I probably wouldn't use it then.

dailies are tricky aren't they? It's a fun part of the game I think.

I mean, in this case (assuming it hits) it does a nice hunk of damage (especially since I have CA on the swarm) and (hopefully) blinds the wererat. That's probably pretty good use.

On the other hand, we might walk into the next room and be confronted by a bunch of giant, floating eyes, all bunched together! :lowsmile:

I think I have a tendancy to save up my dailies for the "next big encounter" and end up not using them.

it's a neat choice to have to make.

[Zyzzyx]

And Sagar did mention that he expected this "to be an easy encounter". Hmm....

[Sagar]

Honestly, BB will probably be more useful later.

[Greebo]

Really? If the rats attacked baladir first thing in a round and three monster attacks and two other players later, Baladir's turn came up, you wouldn't say "saving throw?"

When the rats attacked, "Baladir the rats swarm over you, its nasty, squirmy, ycuky, and you take ongoing damage - save ends."

At the start of his turn I'd say, "Baladir, you take ongoing damage from the rat attack"

If Baladir said, "I move to X, I drop my sword and pull out my flamethrower, and I light the vat of oil on fire. Next!" By level 6? That'd be the end of his turn. I mean, I *might* remind him once, but I told him when he got hit, I told him at the start of his turn, how much hand holding of each player should the DM be expected to do on top of everything else?

[DinbinFanfoom]

Thinking about the recent misses, Solak looks over his Staff, making sure it still has all the magic it should.I often look at my tennis racquet this way, after being aced.

[Asharad]

I often look at my tennis racquet this way, after being aced.


This makes me want to play tennis. I really suck at tennis (I was recently beaten in straight games and staright sets, or whatever. I didn't win one of those times you count to 40 and then win) but I also really enjoy it.

[Asharad]

At the start of his turn I'd say, "Baladir, you take ongoing damage from the rat attack"

yeah, thats what I was asking.

From your post it sounded like you'd tell Baladir he was attacked when the attacked happened and then not mention it again.

What you are saying is perfectly reasonable.

[DinbinFanfoom]

This makes me want to play tennis. I really suck at tennis (I was recently beaten in straight games and staright sets, or whatever. I didn't win one of those times you count to 40 and then win) but I also really enjoy it.It's a dang fun game, and fantastic exercise (ESPECIALLY if you play badly; a LOT more running). More so than golf, which I also find fun, but which I also suck at. During the summer, we often play doubles against my sister and Zippit. This often sucks for us because Zip is 6'4" and has a ridiculously long reach and likes to play the net. :P

[EricStratton]

I don't like tennis due my inability to hit it as hard as possible and still keep the ball in the court area. I'm a much MUCH bigger fan of racquetball. I love RB.

[Zyzzyx]

Back to the other game... are we concentrating on the wererat because of its regen, or on the swarm because of its persistent ongoing damage attacks?

[DinbinFanfoom]

I was focusing on the WR because it takes full damage from melee and thus should be able to be killed faster.

[Asharad]

I was focusing on the WR because it takes full damage from melee and thus should be able to be killed faster.


This was my thought as well.

[EricStratton]

I was focusing on it b/c it regens and b/c it's already bloodied. Figure if we can finish it off fast we can all concentrate on the swarm.

Of course then I went and rolled a 17 and a 13.

[Asharad]

Am I getting sneak attack damage?

sadly, no. Its only for one turn.

[Lycos]

sadly, no. Its only for one turn.

Well, it was good while it lasted.

[Asharad]

baladir, you got attacked and got two effects on you. You can, I beleive, save agaisnt them in this round.

[Lycos]

baladir, you got attacked and got two effects on you. You can, I beleive, save agaisnt them in this round.


Thanks. I always thought you had to wait until the next round. But that's cool.

[Greebo]

Thanks. I always thought you had to wait until the next round. But that's cool.

Any effect which affects you in your current turn, which save ends, gets a saving throw in that same turn.

[Lycos]

Any effect which affects you in your current turn, which save ends, gets a saving throw in that same turn.

I thought that save was whether the effect happens or not, and the next rounds saving throws were to see if the effect has worn off or not.

[Greebo]

I thought that save was whether the effect happens or not, and the next rounds saving throws were to see if the effect has worn off or not.

That depends on the power that hits you. Sleep works that way, IIRC, while things like poison, immob, etc - they hit you and w/o a racial/class power that grants an instant saving throw, it happens, then you see if it ends.

[Shiz]

Will is be possible to bull rush through the small door?

[Sagar]

Will is be possible to bull rush through the small door?
Yes, but it must be opened first. And you need to make an agility check if you are in heavy armor 'cause the door is a bit tight (DC 10)

[Shiz]

After the swarm is dead, I say we unleash Brun on the rogue rat.

[Asharad]

I am assuming the door is still closed (for now).

You can replace my last attack where it said "wererat" and just make it against the swarm.

[DinbinFanfoom]

OOC: Ash: If you delay your turn until after Brun's, she can shift east and give you (us both, actually) CA flank. That will allow you to add sneak attack, no? I assume it will take us the round to kill the swarm, though I could be wrong. If not, yeah, I'll charge that door if Bal can throw it open.

Looking at it, we likely have enough damage on the swarm this turn to allow Brun to charge right away, though Baladir is in the way.

[Asharad]

Yeah brun, I can do that. I'll delay, allowing brun to move.

We'll both get CA and I'll add my sneak attack bonus.

Okay, last post edited.

[Sagar]

I have Brun shifting to flank.. what else is she going to do?

[EricStratton]

See the post above at the top of this page. Done. :lowrazz:
It took me about 5 seconds to edit my post when I realized Sagar had already run your turn. You were just sitting here hitting Reload waiting for my reply, weren't you? Terrible, Lycos. Terrible. :p

[Lycos]

It took me about 5 seconds to edit my post when I realized Sagar had already run your turn. You were just sitting here hitting Reload waiting for my reply, weren't you? Terrible, Lycos. Terrible. :p

Shameful, I know. :lowlol:

[EricStratton]

Ok, w/ Baladir blocking the door (/sigh. ;)) perhaps Brun can grab him and move him and open the door (or would that require too many moves?). Then Solak throw a fireball into the room and keep our fingers crossed.

Or once we get the door open Amaril can teleport to the far side of the room (I think I haven't looked at his TP powers in a while) and then go from there.

[Lycos]

:eek!: <- Baladir with the deer in the headlights look as everyone stares at him to get out of the way. :lowlol:

I didn't make a move last round, can I move now?

[Zyzzyx]

Can one of us gently shove him outta the way while the others go for the door?

[Asharad]

I spent my turn trying to move him. We shall see.

[EricStratton]

I was thinking a STR check wouldn't be necessary since, as you said, it's not like Baladir's fighting you. But the PHB section on Carrying, Lifting, and Dragging (pg 222) says:

Your DM can also ask you to make a Strength check to
push or to lift something heavy in a stressful situation,
such as in the middle of combat.

So...damn.

[Asharad]

Your DM can also ask you to make a Strength check to
push or to lift something heavy in a stressful situation,
such as in the middle of combat.

So...damn.


yeah, but while we are in the middle of combat, there isn't any combat currently going on. So..I dunno.

[Sagar]

This is all part of a combat round. It's about a 6 second period of time during which you all attack, move, kibitz, ponder, etc. It's a pretty hectic time.

I visualize it like:

Baladir yells (challenge) as he swings.
Trask studies the rats.
Baladirs sword arcs through the pile.
Fandango decides to sly flourish.
Trask fires and fries the last rats
Baladir continues his follow through.
Trask decides to go through the door and leaps that way, trying to should Baladir aside.
Amaril...

You get the idea.

Fighting Baladir doesn't have the luxury of thinking "Oh, pardon me. Am I in your way?" like he does in the posts.

The roll is part of determining if Baladir realizes Fandango's intent and can react in time and if he is just to anchored in his position to be moved readily.

[EricStratton]

Amaril has movement 6. I was thinking of moving to the door, opening it (minor action, I think), and then continuing on into the room. This would require me stopping on Baladir's spot (he's 6 spaces away from me). Is this possible?

Amaril will at least get concealment from moving so far so he'll be a bit harder to hit.

[Sagar]

The door opens towards you. Baladir, in that square, blocks the door from opening more than a crack.

That and you can't end a move in the same square as an ally.

[DinbinFanfoom]

How about this...

We pretend to keep fighting, even though the rats are dead, so the wererogue does not suspect we are readying for him. In THIS turn, Brun will Second Wind and heal up a bit.

Next turn, we wait for the rogue to stick his scrawny arm out to stab something.

Bal yoinks the door open, and Brunhilde grabs the rogue and yoinks him into OUR room OR tries to surprise him with a readied attack after Bal yoinks the door.

[Lycos]

We don't know whether he is still in the other room or not. If not, then we are wasting time that we could've spent getting him. *shrug* It's probably 50/50.

[EricStratton]

Sagar made it sound like the rogue was going for a hasty retreat. Or at least, that's how I read it. And if that's true, I'd rather he didn't go get his friends. Thus my desire to get into that room and get him ASAP. Could be I'm wrong but...better safe?

[Asharad]

He a rogue, watch for stealth.

Which...I know, I know...

[Shiz]

Who has Boo? It is not listed in the character sheets for anyone. Don't forget about it.

[Asharad]

Who has Boo? It is not listed in the character sheets for anyone. Don't forget about it.


Good question actually. One of the finger wigglers, I believe.

[Zyzzyx]

I had it initially, thought I gave it over to Fandango?

[Asharad]

I thought you didn't, to be honest. I thought we talked about it but never resolved it.

[Zyzzyx]

Yeah, probably wasn't resolved. I'll have to have a chat with Redd, see if he's been keeping Boo from me.

[Sagar]

Solak has Boo.

[Zyzzyx]

Oh. Ok.



Regarding this next door, I just had an oddball idea... Hang a cloak over Redd, have someone open the door, send Redd through first for distraction.


But I'm not fully awake yet, so that's probably not as good as I'm picturing it to be.

[Shiz]

I say we open it and you and Amaril blast away.

[Zyzzyx]

That works too... always enjoy warming a place up.

[EricStratton]

Unfortunately Amaril's not much w/ groups. *But* perhaps I could teleport into the middle of "them" (whoever and however many of them there are) and hit em w/ my immobilizing encounter power.

Should I turn the sun rod off or are we just going to open door and blast?

[Shiz]

Leave the sunrod on. Immobilizing them would be sweetness.

[EricStratton]

K. As soon as we get a look at the room, I'll do that.

[Zyzzyx]

I'd like to try my 'Ghost light on the nose' trick again. Not sure how the game mechanics will play it out, but thinking about it seems like it should gain us something, for a short bit. And now that I know to give an attack roll with it this time. ;)



Oooh... and was just thinking while ironing my shirt... need to see the map, but I may just lead off with Sleep. Group of critters, could be just right for it.

Dunno if we've got any minions though. :/

[Asharad]

A thought!

We have combat advantage this round.

If our enemies are bunched up and our ae attackers delay until after my turn, I can use sneak in the attack this round. its a minor action, which means no attack for me, but it grants whoever hits after me my sneak attack bonus.

Assuming its one of the wigglers and they are using AE, thats +2d8 for each target.

Just something to think about, milage may vary depending on how they are arranged behind the door.

[Shiz]

I don't think you are going to have a spot to teleport into for a CB1 anyway.

[DinbinFanfoom]

OOC: I'm waiting on a map. Then I'll know.

[Lycos]

OOC: I'm waiting on a map. Then I'll know.


ditto

[Shiz]

That is...sub-optimal.

If Bal and Brun move all the way in against the far wall, then they cannot be flanked, but they can be semi-surrounded and the LoS for those of us with ranged attacks will be limited. Still, it is probably the best option. Clearly, none of the squishies want to be in that hallway crossfire.

Sleep would be a very nice first attack. 5x5 can get all of them but the rogue if you target S2 or T2.

Can we delay in a surprise round to move after someone else?

[Asharad]

Another thought...we could retreat a bit.

Right now, nobody has line of sight on anyone. We could back up and try to get them to come to us.

I hate not attacking more than anyone, but tactically it might make sense. We move forward we are going to be the ones at a disadvantage.

[Asharad]

If our wigglers drop an aoe in the hall, will it hit the mobs they can't see?

[Shiz]

If our wigglers drop an aoe in the hall, will it hit the mobs they can't see?

Yes. They only need LoS on the target square.

[Asharad]

I was mistaken about sneak in the attack, it's single target only. Unfortunatly.

[Asharad]

I think we should hold our position for now, after looking at the map.

Out tanks are were we want them, they can only be attacked from the front.

Our cannons can drop aes in the hall this round.

The rest of us can chill and see what happens when and if the mobs move.

[DinbinFanfoom]

My tactical take on it...

Since we only have one action, we can move, or attack (ranged) but not both. The only thing moving to melee range accomplishes is positioning for next round. That's not a BAD thing (someone's gonna get shot/hurt/hit anyway) but even if we DON'T shuffle our init order, we're in pretty good shape...

1) Casters fire in their biggest diameter AE's (yeah we miss the rogue but what the hey)

2a) If we get DO get good mass effect and the AE's stick well (sleep, for one) melees can move into range in the hall betwixt the mobs and set up for next round.

2b) If we DON'T get good mass effect and little of the AE sticks, we may choose to keep the melee's where they are, as the "outer" NPC's can't see us very well. Melee's also have some ranged attacks, which they can use in this round, instead of moving.

Thoughts?

[Asharad]

What din said.

Moving the melees in now doesn't do anything good except expose them to more attacks later.

Our casters should cast and everyone else bluff like we are running away. And we see what happens.

We stick right where we are.

[DinbinFanfoom]

That is...sub-optimal.Well, it is EXACTLY what you'd expect from NPC's set up for an ambush. I mean, it's how WE'D set up.

[Shiz]

Damn, I really don't have much. I've got no ranged AoE attack and I hesitate to use a daily on a target w/ cover. Guess I'll just EB.

EB: +7 vs REF on Wererat 2; Dmg: 1d10+5

------

Aaaannnnd, I'm to rolling like ****.

You have zero LoS on Wererat 2. Wererat 1 might have cover. Not that it matters with that roll.

[Shiz]

I still think Solak should try Sleep and then we can charge if enough get hit.

[Asharad]

Is charge a standard action? It's a combined move and attack, yes?

Still, that puts us in the hall between two groups on enemies. There is nothing good about that position. Its like sticking your hand in a garbage disposal, you are surrounded by blades.

We stay where we are, they can only get to us a few at a time.

[EricStratton]

You have zero LoS on Wererat 2. Wererat 1 might have cover. Not that it matters with that roll.
Whoops, you're right.

[Shiz]

Surprise Round:

I'm readying Divine Challenge and Holy Strike.

You need to specify the trigger.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Yeah, there is no real penalty to staying where we are... unless those are all ranged mobs.
There's less risk to staying put, and no real reward for moving in now, considering the melee's can move but not attack. (Charge is just a run unless you attack too, which would make it two actions).

We should probably stay where we are and range attack as much as we can with our free action. Moving in gains us nothing that we can't do next turn.

[Sagar]

If you charge during surprise and you have a high initiative, you can charge (surprise round), attack (round 1) and then move back to position (round 1) before the mobs.. maybe

[DinbinFanfoom]

If you charge during surprise and you have a high initiative, you can charge (surprise round), attack (round 1) and then move back to position (round 1) before the mobs.. maybe
LOLZ, sure, if the casters want to charge. The tanks initiative is poor. Likely not enought to beat the mobs in round 1.

[Shiz]

If Solak sleeps a bunch, then charging is probably ok as long as it isn't just one of our tanks. Then again, Sleep might keep some out of range if we stay put.

[Sagar]

And you can't ready two actions - only one.

[Lycos]

If you charge during surprise and you have a high initiative, you can charge (surprise round), attack (round 1) and then move back to position (round 1) before the mobs.. maybe

Not with my 5 initiative. :lowlol:

[Lycos]

You need to specify the trigger.

I thought that was obvious, but it is clarified for those that need the clarification. :lowlol:

[DinbinFanfoom]

Let's wait and see what sleep does. If it hits, we can still move + attack next round. If it doesn't, moving now would be dangerous and largely useless.

[Lycos]

And you can't ready two actions - only one.

Edited.

[Asharad]

Assuming we throw a sleep in there, I'm going to wait and see what happens.

[Shiz]

Right. We saved ourselves a lot of pain by avoiding the ambush thanks to Baladir. No reason to get all bold and rash now. We can beat these guys straight up. I just want to avoid a series of ambushes by letting things escape.

[Zyzzyx]

If Solak sleeps a bunch, then charging is probably ok as long as it isn't just one of our tanks. Then again, Sleep might keep some out of range if we stay put.

Sleep only puts 'em to sleep if they fail their saving throw. So after they've had one round of action.


Sleep: Hit: Target is slowed (save ends), if target fails his first ST becomes unconscious (save ends, also Coup de Grace attack possible, target is Helpless); Miss: Target is slowed (save ends)

[Zyzzyx]

Sagar's comment, "... but you have enough nasty fights to come...", gives me pause on using the wonderfully (possibly?) powerful Sleep spell here.


Hmm...


I guess I can play with Stink and my other dailies later.

[Sagar]

Surprise Round:

I'm readying Holy Strike, so that when something gets close enough, I can smack it.

When you ready a triggered attack, please specify what the trigger is (done) AND include the attack information like you would with a regular attack (including to hit and damage rolls). Otherwise, when the triggering event occurs, we have to stop and wait for those things.

This public service announcement brought to you by e-DM. e-DM, we bring adventure to YOU!

[DinbinFanfoom]

Sleep only puts 'em to sleep if they fail their saving throw. So after they've had one round of action.That's fine, but they also have to make a save to avoid being slowed, no? Which means their movement and/or actions are constrained. Plus it's better to slow them NOW instead of after we enter the room and enter the blast radius. :P

[Sagar]

Solak, Surprise Round


Without making a sound, Solak makes a subtle presence felt in the hallway. The rats might not even be fully aware of what's happening.


Sleep; +7 vs Will, Area Burst 2 (5x5) centered on T2 Range 20, Hit: Target is slowed (save ends), if target fails his first ST becomes unconscious (save ends, also Coup de Grace attack possible, target is Helpless); Miss: Target is slowed (save ends)



Note to folks: If we do get some unconscious critters, don't forget about the Coup de Grace attack, as they're helpless. I don't remember the details at the moment, but its a biggie.

Edit after roll: Well, that's an interesting mix of rolls... *sigh*

If we were playing in person, I would have accidentally knocked one of your natural 1's on the floor and asked you to re-roll it. Please feel free to do so (reroll one of the 1's) at this time.

[DinbinFanfoom]

OOC: Makes note to contact WotC and tell them to change their spell titled "Sleep" to "Solak's Blast of Apathetic Mild Inconvenience". :D

[Lycos]

OOC: Makes note to contact WotC and tell them to change their spell titled "Sleep" to "Solak's Blast of Apathetic Mild Inconvenience". :D

:rotflmao:

[Shiz]

Exactly.

[Zyzzyx]

Doesn't matter too much with my wonderfully crappy rolls...

[Zyzzyx]

If we were playing in person, I would have accidentally knocked one of your natural 1's on the floor and asked you to re-roll it. Please feel free to do so (reroll one of the 1's) at this time.
Gotcyha, thankies. Rerolling vs Wererat 1.

OOC: Makes note to contact WotC and tell them to change their spell titled "Sleep" to "Solak's Blast of Apathetic Mild Inconvenience". :D
Damn you for making me honestly LOL at work. I mean, uh... well done. ;)


And if we were playing in person this would be where I chuck this D20 out the window and use a different one. *double sigh*

[Lycos]

Hey! Where did the posts go about Shiz's die roll changing techniques go? We should remove Shiz's admin rights in this forum. :lowlol:

[Shiz]

Hey! Where did the posts go about Shiz's die roll changing techniques go? We should remove Shiz's admin rights in this forum. :lowlol:

I don't recant them but it wasn't the right forum.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Waiting on resolution of Solak's attack before Brun determines what she's doing...

Sagar: What mobs can Brun see without cover?

[Sagar]

Busy morning - I'll get back to this this afternoon.

[Zyzzyx]

Reminder for whomever can get to Wererat2 before it wakes up, here's the info on Coup de Grace:


COUP DE COUP DE GRACE: STANDARD ACTION
✦ Helpless Target: You can deliver a coup de grace
against a helpless enemy adjacent to you. Use any
attack power you could normally use against the
enemy, including a basic attack.
Hit: You score a critical hit.
✦ Slaying the Target Outright: If you deal damage
greater than or equal to the target’s bloodied value,
the target dies.


So whomever can get a nice and nasty crit damage hit, I'd say go for it. Maybe even a chance of an outright kill.

And same thing on the other rat, if'n he goes to sleep.

[Greebo]

Wererat's wobble and they DO fall down!

[Shiz]

Since the dires are awake, no charging past them without an OA.

[Sagar]

NOTE: You guys reached a milestone so you each get another use of a daily magic power (if you have them available)

[Shiz]

Milestones give a Daily and a an AP? or just one or the other?

[EricStratton]

IIRC, it refreshes your Daily magic *item* powers.

[Greebo]

IIRC, it refreshes your Daily magic *item* powers.

Correct. At heroic tier, you can use ONE item daily power per day, but gain use of an additional item daily power with each action point you gain that day.

It has no effect on normal daily powers or on item at-will or item encounter powers.

[Shiz]

Ah, got it. So Brun's armor power "recharged". Cool.

[Sagar]

Not as I understand it.

You are allowed to use 1 item daily power per day. If you have 5 items with daily powers, you can only use 1.

When you reach a milestone, you can use another item daily power. If you've already blown the power from a ring, you still can't use that ring again, but you can now use the power in the armor or the rod.

If Brun had her armor and Boo. She used the armor. Before the milestone, she could not use Boo, even though he had a "charge" left.
After the milestone, she could use Boo.

[Greebo]

Ah, got it. So Brun's armor power "recharged". Cool.

No - an item daily power can only be used once.

If you at level 5 had a sword and a shield, each with a daily power, you could use EITHER the sword, OR the shield at the start of the day. Then after you gained an action point, ONLY then could you use the other. But you could not use either twice w/o an extended rest.

[Shiz]

Now I am confused. I have a Symbol of Healing that adds 1d6 once a day. I have a Cloak that gives me resist all 5 once a day. I can use both powers in the same encounter. So what happens when a milestone occurs?


edit: I saw Sagar's post. I am going to search the PHB for this. Makes no sense. If I have 5 items, each with a daily power, I can only activate 1 per day/milestone?

edit: Page 226, I'll be damned



Daily:
A magic item’s daily power can be used
once per day and is renewed when its user takes an
extended rest. As with daily powers provided by your
class, there is a limit to the number of magic item
daily powers you can use on any given day. This limit
depends on your level.
At 1st–10th level, you can use one magic item daily
power per day.
At 11th–20th level, you can use two magic item
daily powers per day.
At 21st–30th level, you can use three magic item
daily powers per day.
Each use of a magic item daily power must come
from a different magic item. At 11th level, for example,
you can use the daily powers provided by two different
magic items, but you can’t use two different daily
powers from the same magic item. Your character
sheet includes boxes to help you keep track of these
uses.
Each time you reach a milestone (see page 259), you
gain one additional use of a magic item daily power.
This benefit can be used to activate any magic item
daily power that you have not already used this day
(even if you’ve already used a different daily power
from that magic item).
After you take an extended rest, all of your magic
item daily powers are renewed, and you start fresh
with regard to the number of magic item daily powers
you can use per day


So I used the Healing daily two fights ago. Milestone means that I can use the Cloak daily now, but not the Symbol's daily?

[Shiz]

Determining Cover: To determine if a target has
cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or
a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace
imaginary lines from that corner to every corner
of any one square the target occupies. If one or
two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an
enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn’t blocked if it
runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s
square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but
you have line of effect, the target has superior cover.


Using the NW corner of your square, you can reach all of his corners unimpeded. No cover.

[Lycos]

At 1st?10th level, you can use one magic item daily
power per day.



That's BS. What kind of logic is that??? More later.

[EricStratton]

That's BS. What kind of logic is that??? More later.
Ah, we're doing the Logic dance again, are we? :lowlol:

[Sagar]

Brun will throw her throwing axe at Fandango's target.
(+11 vs AC, Range 5, Damage 1d6+8)

Result: 19 vs AC
Potential Damage: 14

Does your "to hit" include +2 for CA?

[Lycos]

Ah, we're doing the Logic dance again, are we? :lowlol:

Why does it have to be so complicated? If the DM only wants to give you an item that you can use once per day with one power. Then give us that. What sense does it make that now, we have to keep track of our magic items daily powers and our daily powers as well. It just seems silly for me, and adding complexity where it really is not necessary. Overall, I've been under impressed with the magic items of 4E, and this just adds to my overall impression. Was 3e or 3.5e like this?

[DinbinFanfoom]

Does your "to hit" include +2 for CA?
No, that would be +13 for a total of 21.

[Shiz]

Why does she get CA?

[Shiz]

3 and 3.5 were not. If the Dailies on items were actually powerful, I would understand. I find it a bit annoying but not too bad.

[Asharad]

We are in a surprise round. Everyone gets CA.

[DinbinFanfoom]

We are in a surprise round. Everyone gets CA.
Funny thing is, I added that to my original attack, and then removed it before posting because I thought it only applied to rogue sneak attacks, for some reason. There are a lot of things to "keep in your brain" in this game...

[Asharad]

yEah, everyone should always be going for CA- those extra +2 to attacks are nice!

[Greebo]

I suspect but don't know for sure, that the restriction on item usage is to balance power of the party somewhat. Limiting you to effectively 1 item use per every other fight in heroic tier means that even if you have the complete set of "really awesome armor" where each piece has its own power, you don't have the mastery of the magical forces needed to control those powers fully all at once.

Or something.

It is what it is...

[Lycos]

3 and 3.5 were not. If the Dailies on items were actually powerful, I would understand. I find it a bit annoying but not too bad.

:rotflmao: Agreed.

[DinbinFanfoom]

My "gripe" about it is that it overcomplicates the system needlessly. Game mechanics that "make sense" (ie: flanking) are fairly easy to remember BECAUSE they make sense. One unique magic item per encounter per day... not so much. I don't think it unbalancing if someone wants to blow all of their item dailies in one fight only to not have them later on. That should be their choice. The party having a single fight per day is getting pretty rare... Ah well.

[Asharad]

Question:

I get combat advantage in the first round against any enemy who is after me in the initiative order.

How do surprise rounds effect that? Does a surprise round effectively act as the first round, or does the first round count as the first round?

[Zyzzyx]

Also remember, anyone attacking the sleeping wererat has CA, even if you're not adjacent for the coup de grace.

[Shiz]

Question:

I get combat advantage in the first round against any enemy who is after me in the initiative order.

How do surprise rounds effect that? Does a surprise round effectively act as the first round, or does the first round count as the first round?

You will get CA against those behind you in init in the first real round, too.

[Lycos]

If we can get ranged attacks on that sleeping wererat before he wakes up. That would save us energy later on.

[Sagar]

You will get CA against those behind you in init in the first real round, too.

Correct.

[Asharad]

Nice!

[Zyzzyx]

Noticed yet another goodie for attacking the sleeping (unconscious) Wererat... he's got -5 to all defenses. And is granting CA for the +2. So... looks like a +7 to hit?

PHB p277, Conditions.

[Greebo]

Helpless and CA don't stack IIRC. do they?

[Zyzzyx]

Dunno, that's kinda why I'm putting the info out here. But, CA is a result of being helpless.


What the PHB says in regards to Solak's situation:

Unconscious: You're Helpless. You take a -5 penalty to all defenses. You fall prone, if possible.

Moving over to see what happens while helpless...

Helpless: You grant Combat Advantage. You can be the target of a coup de grace.

And then moving to CA, we know that it grants a +2 attack bonus.


So after that, kinda looks to me that there's an effective +7 attack bonus against someone who is unconscious.

However, Solak needs to add in that the wererat fell prone, thus giving +2 to defenses against ranged attacks, so +5 effective overall bonus.

[Greebo]

My interpretation is that since Unconscious includes helpless, the -5 replaces the -2 for CA.

[Sagar]

One is a defense reduction.
The other is an attack bonus.

[Zyzzyx]

So.... they stack?

[Sagar]

So.... they stack?
IMHO, since they affect different abilities, yes.

[Greebo]

Hmm, that's a good point.

Ok, I'm convinced. They stack.

[Asharad]

Fandango's two over riding character traits:

1- talk ****

2- take advantage of CA whenever possible, to the point where it is a compulsion.

[Sagar]

2 = don't fight fair.

[Greebo]

Fair? WTF does FAIR have to do with life or death combat?

[Sagar]

I wasn't critizing.. it was just an observation.

Personally, I LIKE the attitude :p

[Asharad]

Yeah. Given the opportunity to stab an opponent who is helpless or one who is upright, I will stab the helpless guy every.single.time.

By which I mean Fandango will, of course.

[Greebo]

Yeah, sure you do ;)

[Greebo]

Fandango peeks into the room - the rats, however, don't seem to notice his presence.

Do you want to go on west or head back to the party?

He comes back to the party, tells us what he saw and we SWAT the room.

Ash you look very different today!

[Shiz]

He is MIA and I want to rumble!

[Greebo]

Go post your move for Gerik while you wait...