Part 9 Discussion

[EricStratton]

Healing Word does not require LoS.
It doesn't matter since Sagar has LOS and LOE to Jagged but I'm curious - are you saying Healing Word acts differently from other close bursts?

(Close bursts need LOE not LOS)

[Shiz]

Just making sure. This surprise round is going slowly so I didn't want to delay it with a question.

[Greebo]

Same question, appropriate place:

Why are the zombies moving in the surprise round?

[DinbinFanfoom]

Same question, appropriate place:
Why are the zombies moving in the surprise round?Because they have a single action, like any other surprised PC/NPC? If they move, they can't attack. If they attack (from where they stand), they can't move.

[Greebo]

Because they have a single action, like any other surprised PC/NPC? If they move, they can't attack. If they attack (from where they stand), they can't move.

Surprised creatures (PC or NPC) have no actions. The NON-surprised creatures get 1 action.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Surprised creatures (PC or NPC) have no actions. The NON-surprised creatures get 1 action.Ah. I'm completely misreading all of that then. Thanks for "fixing" me before I made the blunder! :D

[Greebo]

Yeah I have a feeling ES is about to be very unhappy when he reads this...

[DinbinFanfoom]

From his post:
Rend gives Jagged a nod and the barbarian charges Zombie Rotter 3 with a (quiet) Howling Strike. The moment his foot touches down inside the room every zombie head whips around toward him. "Mmmrrrrmmmmggghhh!!!" As if by magic (and it probably is) the zombies are immediately aware of the intruders and ready to fight! The element of surprise has been lost!

This is no longer a typical surprise round. In order to keep things moving, everyone still only gets one move this round. But the zombies get to go as well (they'll only get one move) and no one gets the surprise round attack bonus.
So it looks like this really ISN'T a surprise round at all, since both essentialy have limited actions. In a true surprise round, one side would have full movement/attacks, and the other (the surprised ones) would have limited action or full surprise (no actions). It looks like nobody really surprised anybody... you're both just rather... apathetic about starting the fight. :P

[Greebo]

In a true surprise round, one side would have full movement/attacks, and the other (the surprised ones) would have limited action or full surprise (no actions).
Not correct. I refuse to elaborate!

[EricStratton]

I'm sad that DinBin found the answer before the guy actually playing the game.

I think of it as "both sides are surprised" but still fighting. Like "I gotcha!" "Ahh! No, I got you!" "Ahh!"

In terms of the actual module, the encounter says that the zombies ignore toons until they are attacked or someone walks into the room. I decided that the team would get a surprise round unless someone attacked or walked into the room at which point the zombies would "wake up" and be magically aware of what's going on.

[DinbinFanfoom]

Greebo: Are you saying the surprisers get the limited action, and the surprisees have none? If so, that PHB entry is... fuzzy.

Not to mention 267 and 277 seem to conflict.
Surprised:
If you?re surprised, you can?t take any actions (not even free actions, immediate actions, or opportunity actions), and you grant combat advantage (page 279) to all attackers. As soon as the surprise round ends, you are no longer surprised.
Surprised:
- You grant combat advantage.
- You can?t take actions, other than free actions.
- You can?t flank an enemy.

[Moonshadow]

In terms of the actual module, the encounter says that the zombies ignore toons until they are attacked or someone walks into the room. I decided that the team would get a surprise round unless someone attacked or walked into the room at which point the zombies would "wake up" and be magically aware of what's going on.

So basically we thought we had surprise but did not and they thought the same thing. Got it.

[Greebo]

You cannot be surprised and also achieve surprise. In the surprise round it is an either/or.

And no the PHB isn't fuzzy - if you are surprised, you get NO actions. If you achieve surprise, you get ONE action. To achieve surprise, you must achieve surprise over someone.

If we all get to move, nobody was surprised, so nobody achieved surprise, so everyone should have gotten a full turn.

Moot point - no harm done - just not how surprise works.

Note: Which side you're on doesn't matter - I mean if Jagged were surprised and everyone else wasn't, that'd be fine - everyone gets 1 action

[EricStratton]

So basically we thought we had surprise but did not and they thought the same thing. Got it.
For the most part. Complicated? Yeah. Will I do it this way again? No way. It'll be true surprise round. Too bad for the zombies. (*hint hint*)

[noptov52]

It was my understanding ES decided to make it a non-standard round, instead of surprise round.

[Greebo]

For the most part. Complicated? Yeah. Will I do it this way again? No way. It'll be true surprise round. Too bad for the zombies. (*hint hint*)

So we achieved making them think we think they're surprised?

[DinbinFanfoom]

So we achieved making them think we think they're surprised?
I think you were slightly surprised that they weren't as surprised as you thought they were.

[EricStratton]

You cannot be surprised and also achieve surprise. In the surprise round it is an either/or.

And no the PHB isn't fuzzy - if you are surprised, you get NO actions. If you achieve surprise, you get ONE action. To achieve surprise, you must achieve surprise over someone.

If we all get to move, nobody was surprised, so nobody achieved surprise, so everyone should have gotten a full turn.

Moot point - no harm done - just not how surprise works.

Note: Which side you're on doesn't matter - I mean if Jagged were surprised and everyone else wasn't, that'd be fine - everyone gets 1 action
Except that you *just* finished a round in which you were both surprising and surprised. TaDA!

The PHB isn't fuzzy *anymore* since it's been errata'ed:

Surprised [Deletion]
Player?s Handbook, page 277
Remove ?other than free actions.?

[DinbinFanfoom]

The PHB isn't fuzzy *anymore* since it's been errata'ed:
Surprised [Deletion]
Player?s Handbook, page 277
Remove ?other than free actions.?And there it is. :D I knew I was only half-confused. No free actions on BEING surprised.

[EricStratton]

Just to clarify a bit more - I was going turn the round into a true, non-surprise, round. And I would've in a tabletop game. But doing so here would've required me to get everyone to re-post a full turn. And this round already took too long so...the jumble of craziness is what you got instead.

[Shiz]

Speaking is a free action, so...

When surprised, it is allowed to say "Oh ****!"

[DinbinFanfoom]

Speaking is a free action, so...
When surprised, it is allowed to say "Oh ****!"As written, no. :D You're too surprised even to speak. No actions at all when surprised, including free, immediates, interrupts, AoO's... They removed the "other than free actions" from page 277.

Do I finally have it right?

[Greebo]

The PHB was in conflict with itself on that one - P267 states that the surprised can NOT take free actions.

[Zyzzyx]

The PHB was in conflict with itself on that one

Well, it is in those awkward adolescent years...

[Greebo]

Where is everyone?

[EricStratton]

Moonshadow, make sure you're looking at an updated level 2 version of Cilene's character sheet. You rolled a 7 for INIT and posted your total INIT as 14. You have an INIT modifier of 8 so total is 15.

Only reason I'm mentioning this is b/c this isn't the first time I've noticed a stat you posted was off by 1 so I want to make sure we're on the same page.

[Shiz]

Moonie has not updated her sheet completely, I don't think.

[Moonshadow]

Moonshadow, make sure you're looking at an updated level 2 version of Cilene's character sheet. You rolled a 7 for INIT and posted your total INIT as 14. You have an INIT modifier of 8 so total is 15.

Only reason I'm mentioning this is b/c this isn't the first time I've noticed a stat you posted was off by 1 so I want to make sure we're on the same page.

I was doing that from my iphone and memory not the sheet. I need to put a copy of my char in my purse.

This is usually what's happening when my rolls look wonky.

[EricStratton]

From your iPhone? Now you're just rubbing it in. :(

;)

[EricStratton]

Given the changes, Maz (move to F6) would have then used his power to swap places with SW5 (move to E7) after the attack. SW5 still marked.
Maz can't move to F6. There's a skeleton there.

[Shiz]

Maz can't move to F6. There's a skeleton there.

His power swaps places. Read it above. I meant Maz would be at F6 and the skel at E7 after the swap the comes with Luring Strike.

[EricStratton]

His power swaps places. Read it above. I meant Maz would be at F6 and the skel at E7 after the swap the comes with Luring Strike.
I read the above. But then I read Luring Strike and I don't see what you're seeing that would allow that. Maybe it's the text on the power card? It says that Maz would move somewhere and then pull the target into the spot Maz vacates. This makes me think that the spot Maz is moving to must be open before the skeleton moves.

Hit: 1[W] damage. You shift 1 square and slide the
target 1 square into the space you occupied.
Effect: Before or after the attack, you can shift 1
square.

[Quervo]

humm we have been playing as that I could use the power to trade places with the target of the power....

[EricStratton]

humm we have been playing as that I could use the power to trade places with the target of the power....
IIRC, I've only allowed it if you could shift into the mobs place after it moved (as part of the "you may shift after you hit" part of the power). But I had to look up the power today so.../shrug. From now on we play it the way it reads.

[Shiz]

Sagar had CA from Rend but it didn't help.

[Quervo]

Sagar will strike at SW5 again (+6 vs AC, d12+5 damage, +3 to hit to Rend) then shift back to E8.

Bah!
8 vs AC,
6 damage
but I don't THINK I fell down when I shifted.


read my post just above yours... who needs to adjust? I thought I was next... unless my 7dmg kills the skelly we need to make a change

[EricStratton]

read my post just above yours... who needs to adjust? I thought I was next... unless my 7dmg kills the skelly we need to make a change
As the init order stands now it's Sagar then Maz. But you guys are welcome to swap in which case Sagar's move needs editing. If you don't swap, yes, Maz's move will need to change.

[Sagar]

I need E8 to get to D9 so we can possibly set up flanking. Can you move him to E7 for now?

[Shiz]

Rend needs to see where Maz and Sagar end up.

[Quervo]

umm i should have started this round at f7

That would have blocked SW5 from getting to Sagar, and SW6 would have recieved an OA from me

Waiting to see what ES does about this...

[Quervo]

I wont change my attack I will just move to the spot Sagar just vacated... grr have to change my at will.... one sec

ok new action... previous roll... Luring Strike... 21 vs AC, not using the shifts, 2 damage... leaving the mark on SW 5


That was the f7

[EricStratton]

umm i should have started this round at f7

That would have blocked SW5 from getting to Sagar, and SW6 would have recieved an OA from me

Waiting to see what ES does about this...
ES is going to tell you to try to be a whole lot more specific about your moves when you say you're going to change it. I completely ignored that whole first sentence in your move post b/c you said you were going to change it.

Then ES will keep SW5 where he's at and have him swing and miss Mazirith. But, from what I can find, SW6 was not adjacent to F7 so there would've been no OA when he moved to fight Jagged.

ETA: Change made on map and last "round" post. And I did confirm that Rend Chill Wind'ed SW6 to H7 thus taking him away from F7 and out of OA range.

[Shiz]

Sagar figures Maz has SW5 handled so he moves to help Jagged. After scooting to I8, Sagar swings a righteous strike at SW6 (+6+2 vs AC, d12+5 damage, +3 to hit to Jagged).

21 vs AC
11 damage

Mr. DM, this means SW6 is probably dead. If so, do I lose the 18? There is no reason to change my attack since it won't matter with a 5 vs the Captain. I don't have my encounter power left so the 18 just means at at-will or my sling hits.

[EricStratton]

Mr. DM, this means SW6 is probably dead. If so, do I lose the 18? There is no reason to change my attack since it won't matter with a 5 vs the Captain. I don't have my encounter power left so the 18 just means at at-will or my sling hits.

Just roll a new attack on your next turn.

[EricStratton]

Waiting on a move from Quervo (or Maz's proxy).

[EricStratton]

Jagged should be at K9, as a reminder.
Well, not "should", "will". He *will* be at K9 as soon as he takes his Round 8 turn.