deepfred
5th October 2006, 12:39 PM
this is an interesting situation.
i recently posted my newbie coercer guide on the EQ2 forums, and while it blew over fairly well - even soliciting a few "good read"s from the odd 70 coercer - a young lad comes up and posts that it is all wrong, wrong, wrong!
fair enough, but the style of the conversation seemed eerily familiar, the same tortuous destrcution of the english language abounded, and finally i felt the screen name - tanatus - sounded familiar. so in one of my rebuttals i asked, "are you mondor from stratics?" and he said yes!
anyway, if you miss the old mondor, you need look no further, he is a mighty soloing coercer in EQ2 who has the same old cantankerous set of jibes at why he can't solo better, or how upset he can get when he doesn't out DPS everyone in the raids he now frequents - just look for tanatus on EQ2 boards and search for his posts for a reminder of the good old days...
>> the original post (http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=15280) (EQ2 forums link)
(i'm schmee there)
deepfred
6th October 2006, 01:51 AM
for those out of the loop, search google for "mondor, ididar, necro, bad" and you'll pull the following...
>> Coming to EQ from UO? Here's the first thing you need to know (http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/eq/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=529720&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1) (stratics thread)
which includes such classic exchanges as...
Queed:
Rule number 1:
This is not UO. Don't try to compare it to UO. Please.
Now, I never played UO. But I can tell someone who has by their use of the word "shard". Anyway, a few of them haven't done their research.
Why am I saying this? Because I ran into a UOer recently. And you know what he told me?
He was a human wizard. He had put half his stat points into strength and the other half into intelligence. And he said he was a "tank-mage".
Sorry friend, you're a wizard. You run out of mana a little sooner than other wizards, and you can carry a bit more than them, but you're no more or less a wizard.
Meddik
The only thing even approaching a Tank-Mage is a Druid. Not so much armor+ casting as the versatility.
Anna T-S
mmm disagree, I'd say necro.
Samira
Funny, I would have said shaman. But that's probably because I don't know UO.
Darniaq
Hehe. Just wait til he tries to dual wield =)
Fool...
Mondor
By definition the ONLY class that can be called TRUE tank mage - is shaman - they CAN tank in past 55 game (AC1000+ - none of other casters but cleric can pull that high) - shaman's have semidiecent weapons (like spear of fate) and decient arsenal of spells.
As for necro - we are more close to pure mages in UO who's main weapon were BS (blade spirit)/EV (energy vortex) as well as habbit carry no armor (meditation!)
Druid/Wizards - more or less corespond subtype of mages who used in UO a lot AE spells like meteor swarm/chain lighting
Meladin
Queed -
While I agree with you in theory, I do have to say that it's natural to compare something new with the closest experience you personally have.
This is my first online game so I didn't have any frame of reference for the online part at all.
The closest thing I could use a starting point for my own comparison would be RPGs such as FF, Chrono Trigger, et al.
I realize that are virtually no similarites between those games and EQ but having them as a point of reference in my own mind gave me a certain level of comfort when first starting EQ.
Things like HP, Mana, needing items to cast spells, etc etc were all things I'd seen before in some other games. The fact that there is no siimilarity in how these things are used in the game is meaningless when you're a brand newbie.
When Television first came out the most popular shows were new versions of old radio shows. Many of these shows weren't great on TV and only lasted a season or two even though they'd been very successful on radio. Even though the shows weren't that successful the familiarity factor was enough to get people to try the TV in the first place.
I think that's one of the reaons that many games use similar terms. Even taking my example of MANA. VI didn't have to call magical power MANA, they could have used a completely new term. Or even making the classes and races have similar names to the names used in MUDS and other types of RPGs. They did it to give an air of familarity to the audience it was trying to attract.
So don't be too hard on the UOers who compare - they can't help it. They'll learn soon enough that there is no tank-mage - they'll either learn it from education by others or they'll learn it by dying.
Reijas
Sorry to disappoint you all but the only real tank mages would be Shaman and bards I feel. Reijas at 53, with AC/ATK songs, has 1008 AC in full AC gear 1500+ HP unbuffed, and over 1k attack. at 60 I will have around 1100AC unbuffed in my Kael gear (if I get it ).
Oh and the single most versatile class is the bards thank you very much.
lets see all that a bard can do. Small nuke, stun, fear, snare, haste, heal, resist, charm, manadrain, run REALLY F'n fast, add to stats, DoT, Slow, clarity, Rune, DA, port things to their bind point, and debuff resists.
What other class can do all that?
Versatility is what bards do best, not the best at anything(well except running ) but capable of everything.
Druids have a lot of ability, but they are not as Versatile as bards.
Mondor
Necro can do all above and something extra like res, port, sommon copse!
My hp selfbuff pretty danm close to yours - w/o skin 1480 with skin 2071 and I know few necros lvl 60 who's hp exceed 1800 selfbuffed w/o skin also I know necros whos AC exceed 800 (thanks to DN payabla warrior flyed skin AC on tunic 28 and on legging 15 - toss here orb of invinitive void AC35....). But certanly I wont say I can tank - heck my pet 59 can play dummy for long time (to bad damage output worst then from pet 49 but almost 3000hp)
Ididar
Mondor,
No, necros can't haste others. Their pet haste spells don't count in "haste".
What can necros charm? Undead? Bards can charm anything that can be charmed short of stuff only dictate can charm. No undead = no necro charming ability.
Necros, last I checked, needed potions of jboots to run really fast and, frankly, jboots are sort of funny compared to bard speed. :)
Necros can slow? Since when?
Rune? Since when? Self-buff doesn't count.
Also, on the things I didn't list the necro has very limited abilities in doing so. They can't, as far as I know, debuff most resists. They probably can debuff poison or disease but not the whole gamut. Same goes for buffing resists. Yeah, PR/DR maybe but not all resists and not to the extent bards can. I was up to 414 Magic resist the other raid because of the bard. Can necros claim such? DMF is the only "resist buff" I ever see from a necro.
Yeah, necros are good, in their place, but they're not as versatile as a bard is, nobody is, period, hands down .... NOBODY is as versatile as a bard. That's the whole design of the class ... masters of nothing, adequate at everything. For everything you can do that a bard can do, you can only do it in very limited amounts except for dot and fear.
smacg
More pro-Bard propaganda from Reijas...
We all know that Rangers are the true Tank-Mages.
mondor
OKi let make a score
a) can bard res - no
b) can bard heal - very very poor compare to shadowbound
c) can bard mez - very very poor compare to ST plus bard dont have root
d) can bard snare - very very poor compare to darkness
e) can bard debuff resist - have no clue but my lvl 52 debuff do -36 FIRE/Desease/Poison (better then mage malo - unfortually not lure)
f) can bart sommon copse - no
g) can bard do intrazone port - no
h) can bard cure desease - no
dont make me loud necro barely can be count nuker at lvl 59 (ToN/Defoliation/Expell undead all in 725+ range DD) but not bard
Bard can DoT - roflmao - somehow I cannt recall dots that do more then few damage per tic - while necros dots do mostly in range 100-167 per tic
As for escape - I still bet my array of spell better - FD/HS
And if we taking in account self only spell ....
Threcolour
In my opinion, the class that is the most like a tank-mage is a mage with a tank for a pet.
mantsipid
"Necros can slow with their Darkness series."
No they can't. They can snare with Darkness. 'Slowing' as it is used in EQ is lowering the attack speed of the target... i.e., opposite of haste.
Snaring is the opposite of Spirit of the Wolf, etc.
Ididar
*cough*
LOL.
a) No, we can't res, so? Look at what it costs necros to be able to. :)
b) LOL. Bards can out-heal necromancers, Mondor, last I checked. You guys have a mana cap, we can just heal and heal and heal and heal, no stopping. If we had a healing contest of getting a warrior from 1hp to full health I'd put my money on a bard.
c) Bards can mez better than ST can, Mondor. In my experiences as a bard I could mez up to four mobs at once and with the upgrades I could probably mez more than four at once. Again, you have a mana pool that restricts how long you can mez, I can keep it up as long as my fingers can keep punching keys.
d) Actually, both snares suck compared to rangers and druids. And, if I had a choice, I'd pick darkness, yes. But, its not "very very poor", its just slightly worse. But, in your world if its not better its "useless", so. :)
e) Don't know how much, maybe Reijas can inform you the numbers, I'm out of practice. I know Occlusion of Sound debuffs MR/FR/CR, offhand.
f) Nope.
g) Can you port people? Not just yourself via gate.
h) Yes, matter of fact, we can. *snicker*
Lemme compile my own "list" and see how you fare. :)
a) Can a necro haste buff an entire party?
b) Can a necro speed up a whole party? (ie. running speed)
c) Can a necro heal a whole party non-stop for hours without ever running out of mana? And be able to do all those things from relatively "low" levels?
d) Can a necro provide resist cold, disease, magic, fire, and poison all at once?
e) Can necros do faction buffs for themselves?
f) Can necros provide their own water breathing in .. (drum roll) kedge? :) *snicker* know you'll love that one, just to nag.
g) Can a necromancer invis others?
h) Can a necromancer debuff mob attack speed, or a whole group in seconds? (Again from relatively low levels)
i) Can a necromancer (without having lots of mobs around to lifetap), provide clarity to a party for hours upon hours without having to make them wait?
j) Can necromancers buff casting class int/wis?
k) Can necros debuff a mobs int/wis and mana?
I'm sure I'm missing some stuff, so come on Mondor, have at it. :)
Oh, and to top it all off ....
Can a necromancer do 3-4 of those things simultaneously without running out of mana within a minute and having to stop to meditate for a while before he can do anything else?
Please, you can't out-versatility a bard, its not possible.
Mondor
One act of res cost for necro 500pp true but bard cannt do it
Bard can outheal necro???? no way bard CAN NOT play MAIN healer even in medium-high dangeon's like OS/HS/KC - necro can do it EASY in most area's but lower part of OS (actually easy be true once I hit lvl 57) I am more then cappable keep up with healing 2 tanks IF I have enchanter to slow otherwise I can support one tank - no I am not limited by mana (demilich 31 mana/tic plus my heals MOST mana efficient heals in game about 25 mana for 500hp heal - true I DO need drain something or I need do pact/cancel magic - which isnt most realible)
Necro besides ST have root - and root parking again in most cases as good as mezing - with ST I can control unfortunally only 2 mob (not due to mana issue spell only 60 mana but mainly due to recast/duration) but with combo ST+root - I have no problem controling 4 mob
Darkness carry 70% snare I not think even ensnare carry that much but of course who care's about 50 or 70% - snaring for necro slightly more mana expensive then for druid (60 mana engulfing, 120 mana dooming) and somethat dark have lower resist rate compare to snare..
Bard nukes requied mana so after ~400 damage done bard OOM
yes I can port intra zone ppl via conjure copse - revive (can do it in zone where even mage cannt CoTH)
How much bard haste do max? - 30%? compare to WR/SoS ....
Of course I cannt SoW but for love of innoruuk do you EVER seen party able use bard's speed - I havent
Necro can cast desease resist (40), cold resist (40) , DMF (poison 75)
IMF yes necro can buff faction (or at least use to be able) with CoB, Lich, Archlich, Demilich
Yes necro can proved water breathing with breath of dead (yes consume one fish scale but 3sp isnt a big deal?)
Yes necro can give invisibility - unfortually undead only (for self I have fixed duration skin like shadow)
Well necro mana trasfer emerency one spell - much like evac - then party need mana NOW nothing bard can do about it but necro can transfer ~150 mana/3 second rate with lich on I can fill up 50% mana bar for cleric or ench under 30 second - no way bard can do same - no way
Ididar
Hehe, course I expected a response.
"Bard can outheal necro???? no way bard CAN NOT play MAIN healer even in medium-high dangeon's like OS/HS/KC - necro can do it EASY in most area's but lower part of OS (actually easy be true once I hit lvl 57) I am more then cappable keep up with healing 2 tanks IF I have enchanter to slow otherwise I can support one tank - no I am not limited by mana (demilich 31 mana/tic plus my heals MOST mana efficient heals in game about 25 mana for 500hp heal - true I DO need drain something or I need do pact/cancel magic - which isnt most realible)"
Yes, you are limited by mana. Yes, you need stuff to tap, yes you need a bunch of conditions on your healing for it to be efficient. Bards need NO mana, at all, and in the process of using Cantana of replenishment are ALSO not just healing but providing clarity as well. Can you heal AND clarity? At some point you're going to run out of mana and at that point the bard is going to be giggling as he runs around you in circles at warp 10 giving the whole group clarity, healing, and stamina regen while also mezzing a mob. :)
"yes I can port intra zone ppl via conjure copse - revive (can do it in zone where even mage cannt CoTH)"
LOL. Course, this requires a rather stupid process of you getting an essence emerald in the first place and blowing it on such a wasteful thing as porting people across a zone. But, by all means, I'm sure you ALWAYS port people around via conjure corpse and then they sit around waiting for res effects to wear off saying "You know, this was MUCH faster than running with bard song so fast the baddies wouldn't have time to hit us". :)
"How much bard haste do max? - 30%? compare to WR/SoS"
LOL. Hehe. No, much more. Learn the class before you criticize it. Monks can do 40% haste on their epic. The bard epic alone procs a 55% haste. The best bard song combination is 60% which means you sing both Ervaj and Vilia's at once, if my memory serves me correctly. But can you haste? At all? Besides you pet? Nooo, course not, but your essence emerald res makes up for all that lack of "versatility" right? :)
"Necro can cast desease resist (40), cold resist (40) , DMF (poison 75)"
And? Wimpy, man, wimpy. :) Bards can give you resists so far above and beyond those puny resists that nobody cares, and they stack, and shamans and druids have better resist spells than you do. :)
"IMF yes necro can buff faction (or at least use to be able) with CoB, Lich, Archlich, Demilich"
That only works in certain situations, very limited, and won't let you, for instance, go from warmly to ally in kael to do quests which, while I haven't tested it, would probably work wonders for bards. :) Bards have the similar line to enchanters, giving plus faction and YOU pick which faction, not have the illusion pick and choose which factions you can get to indifferent. Hell, by that analogy rogues have great faction adjustment abilities from the guise line of masks. :)
"Yes necro can give invisibility - unfortually undead only (for self I have fixed duration skin like shadow)"
So, invis to undead only? So? You still can't cast invis, and not on a whole party in the space of 2.5 seconds. A train coming? Who needs to run, bard kicks invis song and the whole party is invisible within 2.5 seconds and you wait for it to pass. Anyone else would still be casting it on the second person by the time the train arrived. :)
"Well necro mana trasfer emerency one spell - much like evac - then party need mana NOW nothing bard can do about it but necro can transfer ~150 mana/3 second rate with lich on I can fill up 50% mana bar for cleric or ench under 30 second - no way bard can do same - no way"
Hehe, of course its emergency only, That's my POINT. You're claiming these "emergency" measures make your class more versatile. No, it doesn'tl. Your one shot emergency measure will give that cleric or enchanter 50% mana in 30 seconds. Fine. But with cantana they don't get low on mana to begin with as they have ClarityII and bard song going and don't need your mana transfer abilities.
Point blank, Mondor, you're trying to justify your assertion and you don't have the ability to do so. Bards can do 3-4 things at once that would take you your whole mana bar to accomplish. I could provide party regen, clarity, resists all at once while you're struggling with tap to keep the party healed. You can do SOME things well, but you can't do almost everything in the game and you can't justify being "versatile" because you happen to like your class. At being a great damage dealing classs, the necromancer has a good spot ... but, frankly, they're NOT the most versatile. You can't be powerful AND versatile at the same time, accept that, its not an insult, it just is. :)
Mondor
Ididar where hell you picked up theory that necro can EVER run lom???
Normally on regular exp group I able maintain pressure 200-250 damage per tic (which danm close to well equpied warrior) pet+dot and YET stay all time above 90% mana (or I am assuming that I do snare too)
Necro and enchanter - the only 2 classes that DONT have any problem with mana flow (lich-line for necro, theft of toughts for enchanter) If I am limited during this it's not my mana pool it's amount HP I have (normally my hp on regular exp group ~2500 - thus I can heal at SAME time up to 4 tanks and STILL be alive) well I can rephrase question can you heal and still do [censored] load damage in same time? (oops fogot bard cannt do any serious damage ....)
Cojure copse transportation involves using cleric (I really love PoA ) main problem with bard sello - you cannt keep staying in area of this song (I tried all things - follow command, just run strait with bard - nope nothing work I always drop out of area of this song - so I'd say sello it's self only thing).
Heh well i cannt haste but my damage output more then overperform any extra damage that rogue/monk/warrior can gain via bard songs
Sure the only serious resist buff I have is DMF - but so far it's really best PR booster
Bards can do a lot thing - true but they cannt do any of that good lol except resist boost (yes here is bard kings) - while necro do most things good or at least medioroce. Generally speaking both bards and necro wasting space on raids - except Velious where necros after resist adjustments start pull respectible damage (read rival to warriors) .... in long run fight like 10-12 min - bard sorry even in Velious pretty much useless unless you fighting something with nusty AE (thus you need insane resist where true bards a best) and oh ya bard's need to heal necro while necro playing manastones during buffing mashine stage
Ididar
Hehe Mondor.
Yes, you can heal ... but can you heal, clarity, and do any two other things and STILL not run out of mana? You said yourself that you can't keep up the mana transfer for any length of time. You can't, you can't, you can't. Period. You said it yourself.
As a bard someone can give clarity, healing, and stamina regen in JUST one song. On top of that they can give haste to the group and do somewhat respectable melee damage, not great, but coupled with the 60% haste they're giving the whole group they're kicking the ass out of your necro pet. :P
Put bluntly, Mondor, you're arguing that being able to heal exclusively and send your pet in ... or emergency mana tap makes you "versatile". No, it doesn't. You can do many things but for MANY of the things listed you need others there to help you do them. You need a cleric for transporting people around in POA and that's probably the only place you ever do it. That's not versatile, that's using a little trick to overcome a lack of keys in POA. Versatile would mean you can do that in ALL, or most, situations, and DO IT in most situations. Not only in one scenario whereas, theoretically, you could do it in others.
Put bluntly, you're wrong, period, end of story. You're strong, not versatile, but you want to be the best at all things and you'll never concede that necros are probably more versatile than wizards, for instance, and magicians but they're not **THE** most versatile class in the game. You're the only person I've ever seen who whenever someone says "who's the best at ..." almost always responds "necros are!". No, you're not the best at everything, you just refuse to recognize that being good at some things doesn't mean you're the most versatile, it just means that necros are good at corpse summoning, ok at ressing, ok at healing, and can emergency mana transfer. That's it. Bards have a list of things they can do at the "ok" level that's 10 times longer than that and until you can assemble such a list .... no, you're wrong. Period. End of story. And the more you argue that a necro's limited, albeit useful and strong abilities make them the "most versatile" the more silly you make yourself look.
and on, and on, and on....
i found it hilarious that given the above search string this is the only page that came up on google. what a classic thread. so many old great names too.
Drax
9th October 2006, 12:26 PM
Ha! None can escape my mad googling skeelz!!1!
Ididar! (http://www.ididar.ca)
I wasn't sure if this was a fluke or not, so I sent an email through. Here's how it went... ;)
Awesome. Erudite was actually the one to have found your website. Most of the old Stratics gang hangs out at http://www.legendsofwestwood.org/forum/index.php (http://www.legendsofwestwood.org/forum/index.php) nowadays. Check it out if you have the time, give an update of your life, what's been going on. I'm sure most of the older gang would really enjoy/appreciate that!
Glad all is well, and take care!
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Photo Admin [mailto:photo@ididar.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 4:28 AM
To: Drax
Subject: RE: A question
Yep. Although, I haven't taken any new photos lately. Been too busy with work and such. Then again, haven't seen Stratics in years either. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Drax
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 2:48 PM
To: photo@ididar.ca
Subject: A question
Hi there!
You have a wonderful knack for photography, I just want to say. Those scenic pictures are wonderful!
Are you the same Ididar from Stratics? If so, please let me know.
Thanks!
Drax
So we'll see... :mrgreen:
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